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In Reply to: RE: Rip from a physical CD. posted by Daverz on April 22, 2021 at 18:12:44
Thanks. I've been purchasing CD quality downloads from Qobuz and hadn't noticed any indications of watermarking, or at least nothing that I thought could be contributed to watermarking.
Edits: 04/23/21 04/23/21Follow Ups:
Qobuz just uses what the labels give them.
Oh, I saw that the web link was referencing a Qobuz file and assumed it was Qobuz you were talking about.
That's the only streaming service I have, but I assume it's the same on the others.
" I can see why Qobuz would want some way of marking their streamed files so that they have some control over use. "
It isn't Qobuz that would add watermarking ( if indeed there is watermarking) but the record company. To understand why you need to appreciate the paranoia that exists in regard to piracy and ( from my now dated experience) the often limited technical knowledge that is typically possessed by the executives that make the decisions on such matters.
I was very involved in watermarking systems for audio when I was working in the UK record industry in the late 1990s to early 2000s. At the time none of the competing systems I was looking at provided watermarks continuously as seems to be the impression commonly held in the audiophile world. The incoming signal to the watermark processor was analysed to find appropriate points to insert the watermark.These would be those points where audible detection was anticipated to be the least likely so that points like the decay of notes would be the least likely place to contain any watermark. Of course things may well have changed since then but the potential for audibility would IMO still be a major criterion.
I still have a blind test CD from one of the proponents of the watermarking systems ( each musical excerpt repeated three times where each of them may or may not have been watermark encoded). I have never been able to confidently judge which was which. At least I am not guessing as to whether or not any have been encoded.
I wonder how much that is attributed by audiophiles to watermarking without objective evidence to support it is caused by other factors?
"We need less, but better" - Dieter Rams
See my reply to Daverz. I thought he was talking about Qobuz.
The only problem I've encountered with CDs containing some form of watermark or copyright protection is that my Rega Apollo CDP will not output a digital signal (SPDIF or Toslink) if the CD is copyright protected. I've had to rip those CDs to hard drive and then burn a CDR disc. Plays those discs just fine.
" The only problem I've encountered with CDs containing some form of watermark or copyright protection is that my Rega Apollo CDP will not output a digital signal (SPDIF or Toslink) if the CD is copyright protected. I've had to rip those CDs to hard drive and then burn a CDR disc. Plays those discs just fine."
How do you know that those discs had either watermarking or other DRM? Record labels do not advise of the fact on the packaging. One thing that is clear is that if a CD so treated cannot be read by a standard redbook player then the record company would go out of business pretty quickly. In any case watermarking cannot be removed by making a rip as it is contained within the music data and so will be in the rip as well. Anti-copying DRM should mean that no rip could be made at all.
I believe that you are incorrectly attributing the cause of your Rega's failure to play the disc. It is more likely to be something either optical or mechanical that prevented that particular player's mechanism from reading ToC.
"We need less, but better" - Dieter Rams
I wasn't clear enough about the differences between analog out vs digital out. The Apollo played those discs just fine when using the RCA analog output. The Apollo would not output a signal using the SPDIF connection.
Thanks for the clarification. I haven't come across DRM that does not allow an output at all, rather that either the (ripping, recording) device attached will not accept the data stream without a key to authorise it or where the stream is encrypted and a device without matching decryption cannot recognise it.
Anyway, as I mentioned, the object of this type of DRM is to prevent ripping , which in fact you were able to do. I believe that Sony released a lot of CDs like this some years back over a couple of months but had to abandon it due to the public reception when it was found that the system introduced root code to the ripping device e.g. computer, which disabled it when ripping of the disc or others similarly equipped was attempted. Incidentally you should be able to see if the CD is protected by inserting it into a computer optical drive and selecting "Properties".
"We need less, but better" - Dieter Rams
Most of the CDs that wouldn't output digital were Sony CDs. I used dBpoweramp to rip them so they must have figured out how to disable the DRM encoding.
are there non-physical CD's? metaphysical disks or quark media?
I knew what Dave meant. :-)
It is getting more complicated now that we have CDs, CD rips, CD quality downloads, and CD quality streaming. So yes, it is a bit metaphysical. I'm looking forward to extrasensory media; no more stereo systems needed.
he should have mentioned the redbook standard just to be sure
oops, gotta go let the physical dog in ... the analog version
he's a woofer that's not a speaker
"Physical CD" was short for "Rip from a CD that I have in my posession, not a download."
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