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31.172.30.1
In Reply to: RE: Have you ever heard a DAC? Do you own a stereo? -t posted by Sordidman on June 13, 2012 at 08:53:10
It certainly is a fair question, because I am looking at this as if I do not own a Dac, and I have no clue why anyone would want to. Before I try any of these many free trial offers, I want to make sure my equipment is up to snuff. Is this truly the tale of Archimedes Gold, or The Emperor's New Clothes.
As you are well aware while taking a bath, Archimedes noticed that the level of the water in the tub rose as he got in, and realized that this effect could be used to determine the amount of gold in an object. Archimedes then took to the streets naked, so excited by his discovery that he had forgotten to dress.
Whereas in the short tale by Hans Christian Andersen two weavers promise an Emperor a new suit of clothes that is invisible to those unfit for their positions, stupid, or incompetent. When the Emperor parades before his subjects in his new clothes, a child cries out, "But he isn't wearing anything at all!"
Manufactures have conflicts of interests that may cause them to lie to themselves about what they can actually hear. If I appear skeptical when I see a naked man running, it is because I have to determine if it is indeed Archimedes, or just the Emperor.
I run my McIntosh pre-amp from the Dac in my Dads antiquated Denon surround that he left when he passed away many years ago at age 91. It plays 24 bit, 96 kHz audio. Everything sounds better going though McIntosh. Time is not on our side, as our hearing ages Archimedes, becomes the Emperor.
~~~
Our lunacies have been indulged up till now..
Follow Ups:
""Manufactures have conflicts of interests that may cause them to lie to themselves about what they can actually hear.""
Your statement implies that manufacturers have a common goal, and fall short in achieving it. Manufacturers actually build idiosyncratic products that sound good to them. If you agree with that particular manufacturers application of their product, and agree with them that they have a particular insight into "sounds good," - then you will be more likely to buy their product: depending of course, on other considerations.
I am not sure what your two condescendingly vague little anecdotes are exactly intended to elucidate, but it still appears to me that you are making completely erroneous, (and quite childish), assumptions about audio equipment based on a dramatic lack of experience.
"In this land right now, some are insane and they're in charge. To hell with poverty, we'll get drunk on cheap wine."
Sumflow> Manufactures have conflicts of interests that may cause them to lie to themselves about what they can actually hear. <
See advances in computer audio http://youtu.be/XpAekzBJ6jk?t=19m20s
~~~
The driver smiled when he lost the car in pursuit
Sordidman > Your statement implies that manufacturers have a common goal, and fall short in achieving it. <
Well yeah. They each want to sell something that everybody else in the world wants.
Sordidman > I am not sure what your two condescendingly vague little anecdotes are exactly intended to elucidate, but it still appears to me that you are making completely erroneous, (and quite childish), assumptions about audio equipment based on a dramatic lack of experience. <
If what you say is true there would be no need to have blind listening tests. It would sound the same even with your eyes wide open. But it seems that we tend to hear what we want to hear. Even more so with a financial conflict of interest involved.
~~~
Our lunacies have been indulged up till now..
I don't frequent this forum, but I was searching for something and came on this thread. Great stuff.
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"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser
I would definitely produce "D", unless people are going to buy speakers unopened in a "big box o crap" from woot.com.As a buyer, the results tell me to hang tight to my wallet and be skeptical about my own perceptions.
Edits: 06/18/12
This was discussed to death - and proponents of those still can't explain how results of a test, performed by individuals A, B and C on a system X, are relevant for individual D, listening to system Y.
You are aware, I assume, that abilities of ear/brain combination are vastly different between individuals? And that resolution of audio systems probably differs even more dramatically?
In other words - what do results, achieved by an arbitrary group of (half-deaf, inexperienced, biased - insert what you like here) listeners, listening for short period of time to an (unresolving, poorly matched, piece of crap - insert what you like here) "system", have to do with experienced audiophile, cirtically listening at length to resolving top-notch gear?
"You are aware, I assume, that abilities of ear/brain combination are vastly different between individuals?"
Actually, this can be tested scientifically. I wouldn't call the differences "vast". The primary psychoacoustic phenomena (frequency band masking, the early sound effect, fletcher munson effect) are pretty consistent because they arise from common physiology. Unless somebody is deaf.
Lets say the difference between me and Martha Argerich *playing* piano is "vast", but we hear the audio reasonably similarly.
... affects perception of details and soundstage.
Another, as Tony noted correctly, has to do with training and experience. Someone with perfect hearing, who hasn't been exposed to quality gear, simply wouldn't know what to listen for - i.e. what kind of differences could be there potentially.
There are psychological factors as well as psychoacoustical factors. They are at least as important. These include training, experience, and attention.
You would be incorrect when you state that musicians hear music the same way non-musicians hear. I lived with a musician for over 40 years, believe me they hear differently. One difference is whether one hears sounds or musical ideas. I also recall reading of studies using FMRI that support this statement.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Yes carcass93,
I agree, the point was about conflicts of interests and how we see, or in this case hear, what we want to hear. That is, my product sounds better to me, so you should pay me a premium for it.
~~~
Our lunacies have been indulged up till now..
... that pales in comparison with the content.
You better stick with the pictures, getting rid of everything else...
perhaps he has already found it......
"In this land right now, some are insane and they're in charge. To hell with poverty, we'll get drunk on cheap wine."
as you have no experience with audio manufacturers, or their products.So what are you talking about?
Or, is this just more trolling? A manufacturer is going to be build a product that they think sounds great. They set a price according to what it costs them to make it, and where they think that it fits in the realm of the market and other equipment. If people agree with their "take" on it's value, - they will buy it. If not, they will not.
There will never be a "conflict of interest." There will never be a consensus as to the "goodness" or "badness" in some universal sense.
"In this land right now, some are insane and they're in charge. To hell with poverty, we'll get drunk on cheap wine."
Edits: 06/14/12
Sordidman:> as you have no experience with audio manufacturers, or their products. <
This is not about them. This is about the customers, and the customer experience which you have no experience with.
Sordidman:> A manufacturer is going to be build a product that they think sounds great. <
A manufacturer is going to be build a product that they think they can sell for a profit, or they will not build it.
Sordidman:> They set a price according to what it costs them to make it, <
You are dreaming, they set a price based on what the market will pay.
~~~
Our lunacies have been indulged up till now..
""This is not about them.""Yes it is, it is about their products, and which product is right for each individual....
""customer experience which you have no experience with.""
What are you talking/lying about? Of course I have a ton of experience, (not as many as some here), but a lot of experience listening to, and buying a lot of different products. Why would you make such a foolish assumption?, - not knowing anything about anything, and about me?
""A manufacturer is going to be build a product that they think they can sell for a profit, or they will not build it.""
Absolutely not.... you saying that assures me that you have no clue what you're talking about. I have seen products that the manufacturer has never intended to sell. Besides, it's a balance of both. What sounds good, and what and where it fits into the market. Yes, in some cases, a manufacturer may build something, but never bring it to market.
""You are dreaming, they set a price based on what the market will pay.""
No. The price is set according to a number of factors. Again, you need to go out and get some listening experience. And some knowledge about what you are talking about....
What is the average mark-up of a retail price vs the "street" price of many high end components? In general, what is the "cost to build" percentage vs the retail price of most components?
"In this land right now, some are insane and they're in charge. To hell with poverty, we'll get drunk on cheap wine."
Edits: 06/14/12
Sumflow:> ..they set a price based on what the market will pay.
Sordidman:> No. The price is set according to a number of factors. Again, you need to go out and get some listening experience. And some knowledge about what you are talking about....
What is the average mark-up of a retail price vs the "street" price of many high end components? In general, what is the "cost to build" percentage vs the retail price of most components?
See: http://youtu.be/caFD7bwkuEc?t=44s
Charge what the market will bear. A business wisdom that comes from Greek and Roman times. If prices were based on cost we would not pay a dollar at MacDonald's for what costs three cents with the cup, for soda. This man clearly says the cost to build products has nothing at all to do with rinsing prices. They set a price based on what the market will pay, and he explains why.
In the old Peanuts comic strip, Lucy had a lemonade stand. But instead of selling lemonade, she offered psychotherapy. The sign over the stand read “The Psychiatrist is In — 5 Cents Please.” “Why do you charge five cents?” Charlie Brown asked her one day. “It’s what the market will bear,” Lucy replied.
~~~
The driver smiled when he lost the car in pursuit
If I bought speakers G or D, I'd want to sit close enough to read the name plates. Speaker S seems better for far field listening.
Bill
they are counterproductive to your posts, and have poor applicability to the discussions at hand. And are decidedly not creative, funny, or interesting.""If what you say is true there would be no need to have blind listening tests""
Yes and no, blind listening tests don't have much value: their application is important perhaps later, as a point of fun, to help show us where we excel or fall short, in critical listening.
If you are being caught up in getting what's best, - then you are ripe for failure.
For we listen to systems, a gestalt, not individual components. In fact, it is sometimes better to acquire a particular component that performs a little worse comparatively, yet has a symbiosis with another piece of equipment, or other combinations of components. Plus, we look to find the RIGHT application for the particular system and sets of components. would you place 6 ft tall Wilson Maxx speakers in an 13 by 14 room.
""But it seems that we tend to hear what we want to hear. Even more so with a financial conflict of interest involved.""
That is an extremely negative viewpoint, and it is largely untrue. Acquiring a lovely sound system is individual, and complicated. We all have different tastes, different rooms, different experiences: (different applications). A common mistake, (if you want to call it that), is to do what you're doing. (If that is what you are doing, based on your wrong headed assumptions, idiotic anecdotes, and obvious inexperience: I question whether or not you are here to troll).
If you are looking to get yourself a system that you like...Quite simply, you need to go out and listen to complete systems so that you can understand system synergy. You need to ask a lot of questions from a humble perspective. You need someone to walk you through a series of experiences to help you understand what is possible based on who are you, what you like, what you already have, (room), and what is best.
Or, there's always a Sharp boom box....
"In this land right now, some are insane and they're in charge. To hell with poverty, we'll get drunk on cheap wine."
Edits: 06/14/12
"Our lunacies have been indulged up till now.."
Can you explain or provide a fairytale for this?
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