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In Reply to: RE: Several problems digital has that analog seems to not have: posted by Ralph on April 17, 2017 at 13:18:04
Ralph: Analog on playback is limited to 15-16 kHz, not 35 kHz.Digital brightness is gone and has been for years. (2) false things already.
The problems of analog are so large that no one serious in audio is using it. No classical recording labels, not Bob Ludwig, not anyone investigating (or producing) cutting-edge crossovers. In order to advance sound quality, XOs are going DSP.
Edits: 04/17/17 04/17/17Follow Ups:
Analog on playback is limited to 15-16 kHz, not 35 kHz.
If that were true, the CD-4 records produced in the 70s would never have worked.
The second half of his statement, however, is true:
"Specifically, the frequency bandwidth of LPs and FM multiplex broadcasts were limited from 30 Hz to 15 KHz .
Yes, FM radio was limited by convention to that range. Why? Because, like the CD-4 recordings, the other channel rode on a higher frequency carrier. In the case of multiplexed FM, it is 19khz, while the back channels of CD-4 rode on a 30kHz carrier.
The poor man must be deaf. Here are some other *jewels*:
"192 KBPS is considered "CD quality." No human can hear any difference between an MP3 at that rate (or higher) and a CD. "
"CD quality is so accurate that you can't hear any difference between a properly-recorded CD and the original microphone feed."
Some 'false information' that is not just 'opinion'!
Took a while!
"Analog on playback is limited to 15-16 kHz, not 35 kHz. "
Where are you getting that information?
View YouTube Video
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
...Alex Jones has to say about this.
It ranges from 15-20 kHz. But not recommended over 15-16 kHz due to noise and distortion.
Edits: 04/17/17
The real reason that they posted that is they don't want to spend time with any given project.
It takes time and expertise to cut a good LP. If you want to avoid processing, you have to identify problem areas in the recording and then do test cuts to see if you can sort it out. That takes time.
When you're billing at $400/hour, taking time is not what the customer wants.
We do it by the LP side and spend the time to do a quality project. As a result we have no worries putting 35KHz+ in the cut, although there is nothing up there except harmonics. The main reason to have that bandwidth is not because there is signal, its to prevent phase shift which affects things like imaging.
This is one reason why an LP can have a better more 3-dimensional soundstage than a CD; there is less phase shift. The ear uses phase as part of its image locating mechanism.
More reading. Best part -a few paragraphs below '3 answers', (starts with) 'playing a vinyl 'LP'.Apparently, LP struggles with content over 10 kHz !!
Edits: 04/17/17 04/17/17
"Apparently, LP struggles with content over 10 kHz !!"
Yes, with a conical stylus.
You might want to look at the physics using a fine line stylus.
You seem have little understanding of the subject at hand.
Have a good day.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
The Dynavector 17D3 has a microridge stylus and short diamond cantilever and has a flat response to about 50Khz. The first resonanance is around 100Khz. That is probably the best example of a wide bandwidth cartridge that I know of. Many MCs have a resonance just below 20khz but not the Dynavector.
Analog master-engineers, what few remain, recommend a cut off at 15-16 kHz.
And the link I provided was in fact, physics. Have you read it ?
"Analog master-engineers, what few remain, recommend a cut off at 15-16 kHz."
Which ones? Certainy none of the top guys. Are you doing this on purpose? ya know, getting everything wrong? I am begining to wonder.....
-
...uh, the link I provided. But then, LP seems to struggle (mechanically) with frequencies over 10 kHz (other link).If anyone here thinks I'm wrong, prove it. I provided links - now it's your turn...
Edits: 04/17/17
http://www.recordtech.com/prodsounds.htm
I provided you with a link to a you tube video showing the FR from a crappy turntable well above 20kHz (all the way out to 60kHz). Just imagine how much better a hi-end turntable and cartridge would be.
Did you view it?
We can go back and forth on this but you need to do some studying and try to understand the issues at hand.
You clearly have very little knowledge.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
I'd prefer a study or an expert's opinion.
If you tube is the best you can do, then *you* have very little knowledge.
First of all, I am an expert.
To find out what the FR of a LP is one needs to measure it.
That is what the guy in the you tube video is doing.
What part of the video did you not understand?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Tre':I respect you knowledge, I just thought a hard-paper would be better than you tube.
However, it's too confusing for the limits of LP. Search on chat rooms and you'll get all different answers -15, 18, 20 even 40 kHz. Then, is this musical content ? noise ? harmonics ? Can the stylus actually read signals that far up (without side effects) ?
The record-pressing site I linked was very clear: cut off at 16 kHz. Did you read this ?
The main concern here is overall sound quality: speed accuracy (belt LP gets an "F' here), inner-groove pressure -leading to distortion of our music, etc.
Edits: 04/18/17 04/18/17
Let's examine what you find in the link posted here.
" The high frequency response of vinyl depends on the cartridge. CD4 records contained frequencies up to 50 kHz, while some high-end turntable cartridges have frequency responses of 120 kHz while having flat frequency response over the audible band (e.g. 20 Hz to 15 kHz +/-0.3 dB).[5] In addition, frequencies of up to 122 kHz have been experimentally cut on LP records."
"Mechanically then, LPs cannot record much beyond 10 kHz without using a smaller-than-standard stylus. In fact the cutoff of frequencies recorded today is around 24 kHz ."
Note the qualification with this one. This refers to using a conical, not a multi-radial or Shibata stylus designed for higher frequency response.
Tre',
There's no sense in trying to debate a 'right fighter'. They'll dig themselves into a deeper and deeper hole in their futile attempts to prove themselves 'right'. Arguing with them is a fools errand. All it accomplishes is to provide them another platform for their madness. Put this guy on 'ignore' and you'll starve his never ending appetite for inane blather.
IOW - quit feeding the troll :-)
Cheers,
SB
-
.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
If you prefer an expert opinion Ijust gave you one in another response. But speaking of expert opinions can you cite one actual cutting engineer who agrees with your assertions on the high frequency response of vinyl?
The (linked) vinyl-pressing website is one, Roger Sander's white paper is another. I trust Sanders because he's an industry veteran.The limit is dependent on many factors -it could be 15 to 25 kHz. The point is after 16 kHz, it's all noise and distortion. Let the mass-market listen to these -we're audiophiles, I thought.
Even though you're trying (hard) to prove I'm wrong, this is a minor issue. It's the sound quality of LP that matters. And it's doing TERRIBLE if we look at what classical labels use to record *and* what reviewers use for playback.
Edits: 04/18/17
Roger Sander's white paper is another...
You mean like his *interconnect test* ? :)
What actual real world records did he actually engineer? Kevin Gray, the mastering engineer I cited has a resume that is second to none. Did you read what he said about vinyl's frequency response?
"It must be true, I read it on the INTERNETS!"
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