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In Reply to: RE: The DB Testers are Making Me Crazy posted by russ69 on March 04, 2017 at 00:17:08
I made a thread on another website and it was very revealing for me. All the hard core DBTers are convinced that DBTing is the only way to test equipment AND most believe that all amps, pre-amps, cables, and CD players sound the same. I was unaware of the depth of that conviction. BUT, the surprising thing was that nobody does ANY DBTing to evaluate their own equipment in their own home. They all accept that there is no purpose to testing in the home because they already know the results without testing. Well there goes the scientific approach, lol.
But they don't need to do a DBT - reading about how others did and or tests run by corporations who sell the product being tested is all the evidence that is required. Seriously, a corporation would never mislead the public in any way about their products.
The corporation always has your best interest in mind.
The DBT guys use testing the way politicians use the truth. The truth is SO important that they only use it when absolutely necessary.
P.S. I might have a quotable quote there, lol.
is where we go with repeated comparisons and the momentary aversion to being wrong. fatigue under those conditions is what prevents dbt from success.
long term listening adds up data within the brain and is able to discern fine differences without the need to make a snap decision.
we don't all have the resources of harman international to properly carry out dbt.
...DBTs can be useful in product development or research.
I don't find them much more than a parlor trick at home.
Every successful equipment designer I know of fine-tunes his finished product by ear.
The idea that most all amps sound the same is ridiculous when you think about the different designs, topology, parts quality, etc. and the different loads they are driving.
Back when I was reviewing, I heard 3 identical amplifiers (Adcom 535s) that all sounded different - it turned out they were all biased differently. The best sounding one was biased correctly.
"we don't all have the resources of harman international to properly carry out dbt."
Nor should anyone trust the results of a corporation that conducts tests and sells the product they are testing.
This is called a "Conflict of Interest."
Harman's products fly in the face of that remark. i don't think that dbt is without value, just that it isn't a requirement for owning or not owning a product.
when it is used as a pissing contest, then it is a waste of time. also, those that march ONLY to that beat are like mice or sheep. it's like those that live by test result numbers alone.
the lesson was learned with the advent of solid state electronics and many sold off their tubed components and when were left holding the bag with systems that didn't sound good and natural.
That was the first lesson I learned in hi-fi. Sold off a very nice five year old Fisher 500 (tubed) receiver that I bought new from the dealer and bought one of those horrible AR integrated SS amps because I read Julian Hirsch's review in Stereo Review and believed it. Got rid of that POS in less than one month. That was a very long time ago (about 1966) and an expensive lesson for this young kid to learn.
Some of these "Reviewers" are full of it and are either liars, tone deaf or on the take. I'll forever be in debt to Julian Hirsch for teaching me a valuable lesson. I wish that I would have been able to "thank" Mr Hirsch before he died. Now all that's left would be to piss on his grave (if I could find it).
...and bought one of those horrible AR integrated SS amps because I read Julian Hirsch's review in Stereo Review and believed it.
I did that when I was 15 and didn't have a clue. It didn't take long to determine that the amp worked great at high power, but resolution tanked at low levels. I kept mine for a bit longer than you.
I did, however, get a glowing THD chart from none other than Dave O'Brien at a local McIntosh clinic.
That experience demonstrated to me the irrelevancy of the THD metric. :)
i have to give him SOME credit because he got me to reading audio mags and understanding what distortion is an some of what to listen for.
i once referenced him to another enthusiast and was laughed at which stared me looking for another source besides high fidelity and stereo review. THEN i discovered AUDIO Magazine where things were more real.
later on, a friend turned me on to tas and much later stereophile, both in small format. i wallowed in those and still do to this day.
back to julian. he reviewed the JBL L100 which was a great looker with its waffle grille in numerous covers. they advertised in every conceivable magazine.
the upshot of his review was like this-the L100 is uncommonly flat from 30cps to 16k cps. well.....NOT. he had by then lost all credibility with me. i still subscribed to Stereo Review because the tariff was the lowest and it was at the least worth paging through.
its descendant is Sound and Vision which does the same thing but to be fair, sometimes has good reviews and reliable graphs.
another reason i didn't want to relinquish the subscription is Strve Simels, whose music reiviews pulled no punches. if he said it was good, you could bank on it. if it was crap, he was very plain in his use of the language. unusual for a critic in a mass market publication.
j godron holt was fired from high fidelity mag because he did the same with equipment. the infinity servo statik fared VERY well in contrast.
comes from an engineer over at vintage:
He's not on the take...
somewhere along the way. Before HH Labs, he published the Audio League Report. There are a few issues floating around the web. His reviews were very subjective, and he frequently printed negative reviews due to awful sonics. HH labs handled reviews for High Fidelity, Stereo Review, Electronics World and a few others....essentially every mainstream audio/hobbyist magazine except Audio. Good reviews sold ads and kept him employed. I did read somewhere that there were more than a few reviews that did not see print because the equipment either did not work, or sounded so bad that it was just about impossible to spin into positive copy.
There is no good reason to evaluate and review something that sounds bad.
If I'm interested in an XYZ amp, and three different reviewers say they couldn't get it to sound good in their systems, or that it sounded great, but caught fire, then the negative review has done me a great service.
that was BOLD of Jerry to relate that.
Audio was the best Audio publication bar non , sadly missed .......
i loved being able to read bert whyte (one of the stereo pioneers), ed canby , cordesman, and bascom king's amp tests with square wave response REALLY helped me understand audio in general, amps in particular.
the october BIBLE was a welcome issue as well as full coverage of professor I lirpA and his products, costly as they were.
I notice that you didn't mention Len Feldman.
len wasn't my favorite reviewer. sort of a milktoast that didn't get the emerging picture in the hifi press. sort of a les bothersome julian.
FYI, It's Milquetoast. The name of a timid character in an old comic strip.
I learned the same lesson the same way. Now the DBT guys say if you heard a difference then it wasn't gain matched...oh please give up on that one....
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