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In Reply to: RE: I'm Curious... posted by Dave_K on December 16, 2016 at 05:24:06
then you would have been SHOCKED to read that Stereophile actually reviewed a serious HORN SPEAKER!!!
And not just any horn speaker, but one with WE replica drivers (mid and tweet, IIRC).
As this happens far less frequently than a full eclipse of the sun here in foggy San Francisco, you would have certainly remembered it.
So when KLOSS mentioned a Horn Speaker review in the same post as Stereophile, I was able to extrapolate to Art's review of the horn speaker in question.
Having read that review, which was very positive, and JA's measurements, and being aware that many GREAT sounding speaker systems, including horns and electrostats, measure for crap, I still had no idea what he was ranting about.
Follow Ups:
Obvious , based on such a clueless retort and no ESL's dont measure for crap , only the bad ones ..
Edits: 12/16/16
Martin Logan seems to measure reasonably well:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/martinlogan-montis-loudspeaker-measurements
http://www.stereophile.com/content/martinlogan-prodigy-loudspeaker-measurements
There's an interference pattern in the high frequencies which results from measuring a large radiating surface in the near field, but you won't hear that.
Which one are those?
The 'bad ones'.
Are those the ones whose manufacturer has been reluctant to send examples to Stereophile for review because JA insists on 'measuring' them?
(nt)
if Magnapan is the 'panel' speaker whose manufacturer wouldn't send product to Stereophile for review for fear of the possible measurements?Didn't recall what speaker it was.
Anyone who wants to send me a free pair of Sound Labs big panels for free, I'll take them and give a crap how they measure. Same with Quad 57's for that matter.
And those 'Line Magnetic' horns which would sound pretty good with my 300B SET amps I'm betting.. ;-)
Edits: 12/18/16
reviewed both the 1.6 and 3.6 back in the day. Even JA acknowledges that his testing methodology fails with large dipolars:
" As I have written before in these pages, measuring physically large speakers with in-room quasi-anechoic techniques is in some ways a fruitless task. The usual assumption, that the measuring microphone is very much farther away than the largest dimension of the speaker being measured, is clearly wrong."
Clearly wrong.
And yet, he seemed to really like the latest Martin-Logan hybrids in the latest issue. :)
Johnny is lazy , he refuses to drag them outside and measure at the requires 2-3 M to capture the panel ..BTW any opinion on the LM graph posted ..? if you have any info /data on ESL's please to post it up for discussion ...
Regards
Edits: 12/17/16
see link to measurements of Quad ESL63
_
Make super easy diffusors:--> http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/everything-else/269366-making-easy-diy-depot-sound-diffuser-panels-step-step.html#post4215464
Horn Design Spreadsheet:--> http://libinst.com/SynergyCalc/
Your Point ...?Well apart from John's consistent inconsistencies , the 989 measurements are Superb compared to the LM Loudspeaker, especially measuring them at 50" .
LOL :)
Edits: 12/18/16
My Point:
"if you have any info /data on ESL's please to post it up for discussion ..."
Forgotten already?
_
Make super easy diffusors:--> http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/everything-else/269366-making-easy-diy-depot-sound-diffuser-panels-step-step.html#post4215464
Horn Design Spreadsheet:--> http://libinst.com/SynergyCalc/
Thanks for posting the links " for discussion " ..... :)
Any thoughts ...??
Regards
Edits: 12/19/16
Not really. I was just responding to the request.
Though I don't buy the "measurements are meaningless" stuff. Just that the measurements of most importance probably arent the ones people obsess over... like radiation pattern and room coupling are probably about 10x more important than response flatness, and impedance is mostly irrelevant with most amps and in-home sane listening levels.
No treble is still no treble, though, unless all hf hearing ability is shot. Balance is something ears can adapt to but a (basically) missing octave probably isn't.
_
Make super easy diffusors:--> http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/everything-else/269366-making-easy-diy-depot-sound-diffuser-panels-step-step.html#post4215464
Horn Design Spreadsheet:--> http://libinst.com/SynergyCalc/
"No treble is still no treble, though, unless all hf hearing ability is shot. Balance is something ears can adapt to but a (basically) missing octave probably isn't." - bwaslo
Less also not forget no "Bass" .... :)
PS: I'm sure John will not be back on this one ... :)
Regards
n
"All I can say is that the reasons for this speaker's undoubtedly superb sound quality are not readily apparent from its measurements. I hope to explore this subject in more depth in a follow-up."
Surprise, surprise.
I've auditioned the modern Quad ESLs a couple of times and to me they sound just like they measure, with a dished out midrange and mid-bass hump. They have great clarity, but they're not what I would call neutral.
Put together by Dave Slagle.
He removes the step-up transformer and builds in two PP el-34/6B4G power amps with x-over built into the small signal chain in the amp and two step-up/output transformers, one PP amp drives the treble panel while the other drives the two mid panels.
They finally had to ask me to leave as I spent most of the 3 day show in the room listening to what was about the best I have ever heard and electrostatic speaker sound.
Interesting setup , i would love to hear them ....
which was a mess due to ongoing remodel of the Marriott Hotel which has been the RMAF home these many years.
I am sure it would be WAY out of my price range but if you think about it, using the output transformer of a PP amp to drive the panel directly rather than stepping down in the amp then stepping up again in speaker makes all of the sense in the world. Bi-amping just adds icing to the cake.
I would have liked to hear that. I've only heard the 57s once, but liked them a lot.
I would also be curious to hear the modern Quad ESLs again, in a bigger room, to see if the bass balance improves with distance. I heard the 988s at a dealer in a long wall setup, listening almost near field i.e. 2-2.5m away, and the mid-bass was very prominent. Then the 2812s in a hotel room. I'm guessing the amount of dipole cancellation in the bass is very placement sensitive.
And more ESL measurements here....
_
Make super easy diffusors:--> http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/everything-else/269366-making-easy-diy-depot-sound-diffuser-panels-step-step.html#post4215464
Horn Design Spreadsheet:--> http://libinst.com/SynergyCalc/
John lives in Brooklyn. I wouldn't be surprised if he's reluctant to "drag them outside" for fear of being mugged and having them wind up in one of those "clubs". ;-)
Cheers,
SB
Hi Ivan,
Well at least you read both Art's and JA's reviews and already knew that they had reviewed a " heaven forbid " horn speaker! Now tell me you also knew that was an Altec speaker in John's OP and I'll know there's still some knowledgeable members here < < < < said tongue-in-cheek.
I'm listening to: Just A Little Lovin by Shelby Lynn
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
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