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In Reply to: RE: I'm Curious... posted by thetubeguy1954 on December 16, 2016 at 03:03:13
I read Kloss' original post and had no idea what he was talking about.
The title refers to a Line Magnetic loudspeaker. Hmm... I wasn't aware that Line Magnetic made loudspeakers. And it turns out they don't.
And that picture of a vintage theater speaker. Hmm... I don't think Line Magnetic made that. And surely if Stereophile had reviewed that I would have remembered.
So I moved on.
Thanks to PAR for investigating and revealing that Kloss is referring to an Auditorium 23 loudspeaker that uses a LM driver. If not for PAR's posts, we would not have a clue what Kloss was talking about. Even after PAR's revelation, Kloss continues to refer to this a LM loudspeaker. He never mentions Auditorium 23 in his OP or any of his responses, doesn't provide a link or further explanation, and acts surprised that nobody could read his mind.
Follow Ups:
I think the problem with the OP's post is simply that a lot of people here and Stereophile readers (and probably 4/5 of their staff are not very familiar with horn speakers of this ilk. And that is perfectly understandable since the vast majority of dealers (especially in the west) do not carry large horns where makers essentially take various drivers (from various companies like Line Magnetic) and then put it all together and sell it under their own label. It's kind of like all the brands that buy a lowther stick it in a cabinet and sell it under their own label.
Kloss probably needed to help most of the readers out here because the massive horns or even the relatively normal sized ones like the Auditorium are just are not mainstream enough in America.
Dave - they actually make a lot of different loudspeakers - Art Dudley and Jack Roberts reviewed the same Line Magnetic loudspeaker. And that one isn't even the good ones.
Pictured is an all line Magnetic system including their speakers. But they make several other speakers on top of this one.
Horns , large or small don't sell well here for some reason...
You can trace the decline of domestic horn sales in the US and Europe against the increase in domestic sales of high power SS amps over the same time.
SS was better than tubes. More power, less heat, less space. With more power available, all of a sudden listeners did not need 2 big horn boxes to achieve high SPL and deep bass in home.
Smaller always is better. Average size of a suburban home from the 50's to the early 80's was less than 2000 sqft.
Asia never abandoned tubes and began to embrace Altec, JBL and WE horns and tube amps in the early mid 70's. Search online for pictures of Asian audiophiles using theater horns in their systems. Many are installed into spaces barely larger than a US master bedroom. Size doesn't matter, only the sound. We have other priorities in the west....
They used to - Klipsch, Altec, JBL and the king daddy Western Electric.
Good horns are BIIIIG and Expensive. And like it or not the middle class is shrinking - more options for younger people to spend their money (home theater and video games and smartphones).
I wonder how often you have been out to Hong Kong or China or South Korea to hear some of the big horns?
Maybe Horns will come back with the Middle Class .... :)
IMO Horns stop being a big seller in the 70's , i owned my last one in 79 and have only seen them sporadically during the 80/90's and not until very recently have i heard one worthwhile and always at the other end of a good SET ...No SET , no sound .... With SET , Serious ....
Edits: 12/19/16
It would be one that doesn't honk, always sound like "Winchester Cathedral" or sound like a collection of dissimilar parts. Like a Danley SH60 where all frequencies radiate from the same mouth with consistent directivity.
Perfect for when on the golf course .... :)
Why do you think that is the case? One theory would be that the horns are so revealing that the flaws of most other designs laid bare.
I heard a horn SS setup one year in Munich. It was still listenable but the potential of that speaker was clearly untapped as evidenced the next year when they had big SET monos on them.
Class A PP triode can also work quite well with horns, so not just SET but SET is preferred I would say.
They also make electrostats sound better but there are obviously more matching issues with that type of speaker.
It doesn't help that emasculated reviewers who are not allowed to have a speaker with anything larger than a 4 inch woofer in 18X40 living room because the wife will beat them continually tout LS-3/5a and other completely dynamically inept speakers as things we should spend $2,000 on.
But hey if you buy two sets and an equally wimpy center channel - it can all be saved with a big fat sub the wife can use as a coffee table. Let's face it - horn speakers are typically hideous to look at. Big speakers are well big and by extension ugly. There's a reason those stupid little Bose cubes sell so well. And hey you can always try to convince yourself it's good. It's just funny to see rooms here in Hong Kong with ridiculously massive Tannoys or JBLS while it is also ridiculous to see the average US home with a Totem Model One as the main speaker. It's just so weird.
But here is something I notice living in HK...and it is only anecdotal to people I have personally met - but my co-teacher and I were talking about stereos (reviewing and such) and I asked her if she had a system - Sure - a B&W loudspeakers, A Naim amplifier etc. Another woman has Sennheiser HD 600s, and an OPPO headphone amp. I mean this is not uncommon - women are into music here and they value it. Classical and jazz aren't relegated to one shelf in a CD selling shops. I have gone to the dealer where the wife is taking an active role in the listening and buying decisions. And they were listening to Einstein and Audio Note back to back. I shared the couch and she was mentioning very relevant aspects to the sound.
I almost never saw that in the west.
I think it's also too hard a sell for dealers - it's easier to sell mainstream heavily advertised stuff and simple concepts. It obviously works in all sorts of parameters in society - sell them easy to grasp things: More watts is better (like megapixels), more features is better (new technology is always best), and lots of baffle-gab on the technological advancements that a Wave Radio is better than a million dollar theater.
I had to check I wasn't in the twilight zone - the three of us agree that A good SET on a Good Horn is awesome? Wow.
Merry Christmas!
Time to buck up then and get some horns to go with your LM 219...something like a LM WE replica system perhaps??
Nope I live in Hong Kong - the apartment won't fit a horn. I just bought new AN E/Spx HE Alnico Hemp speakers for myself for Christmas. You can see them in the thread posted on Steve Hoffman's forum as he owns the exact same pair. This is the most money I have ever spent on an audio component - I had to sell my AN J/Spe but fortunately I paid $2500 for them in 2004 and sold them for $2900 in 2016. And you wonder why I am a fan.Consider that back then for the same $2500 I could have purchased the Reference 3a MM De Capo - I saw a set in Hong Kong selling for $650 in perfect shape.
But when I eventually move to a larger space - Horns will be on the list - that may be ten years so a lot can happen from now until then.It's off to Melbourne for Christmas and New Years - let bygones be bygones and all that.
My post is on page 4
Edits: 12/21/16
You bought another AN speaker , I'm shocked , maybe in 10 yrs AN will have Horns ... :)
Well I had the choice of buying what I like or buying what other people like. I would not think that that would shock anyone.
Ha - so in other words they won't be coming back.
One day business will learn that the more people who have no money the more people can't buy anything that they're selling. Henry Ford knew that his employees needed to be able to make enough money to pay rent, buy food, clothe their kids, and have enough money left over to buy his cars.
A Good SET and a good horn - I love. It would be nice if regular people could afford it.
Horns were always for the masses...just not to own at home. All those WE speakers and amps were strictly professional use in PA and movie theaters. Only recently did the idea come to buy up old ones and put them at home. Same for the Altec VOTT systems. Only later did they make more domestic friendly systems and they were never full horn.
Klipsch for a long time made one of the few true horns for domestic use and it is rather large despite being a folded horn. It has flaws but most haven't heard it with a good SET.
In the 70's i had a VOTT in my home :) , the first Klipsh i ever heard was their folded horn when i was 15ys old, playing thru Marantz toobs, even then it was rare to see them, my neighbor had that one , i may have heard that model only 5 times in over 40 yrs, so still not common to see.
Back in the early 70's it was not unusual to see horns in homes, but they were still not main stream , the masses bought regular type box speakers , most of us with horns moved to stats in the early 80's and later apogee's , Panel speakers were the rage during the 80's , Horns disappeared off the radar completely until recently.
Personally i could never get over their coloration and honk , even today. The best ones are better with timbre, but still some honk, I'm sure some philes find Honk to be dynamics , but it sounds unusual and unnatural to to me. In that case i prefer large scale ribbons and dynamic speakers, they have to be large and multi -driver to get the thd down on dynamics, philes buying 70,80,150,400K single point source drivers looks like madness to me , big speaker small sound compressed dynamics in the mid-high area. I can see someone living with one of those jumping to horns..
Horns really , really sound good to me on SET's and SET's only and only if the SET is driving everything, the magic with SET's is the bass/midbass area , they get this right compared to most amplfiers, this is where they have their jump, listen to a speaker system not setup for an SET amp and it's sounds wrong and bi-amping is the worst , as it kills the SET advantage. SET coupled to class-D = most wrong ..
On acoustic instruments , Horns can be the best, they capture the percussive energy in the mids/high better than other speaker types, if what you listen to, is mostly acoustic instruments and small ensembles , et al, then very hard to beat a top horn SET combination..
A good horn and a 5 watt SET can do the deal.
Recently a dealer who sells horn speakers, also mentioned to me they are a hard sell here in the states. The Surge in audio during the 70/80's went away when non audiophiles stop buying and went into HT. Asia is much more into 2 ch and has been for at least 3-4 decades now.
Sales there is a must ...
Regards..
Regular people bought Klipsch or built their own and no , Horns will never be main stream...
Here is another LM system
And another. They are considerably bigger than some think I believe. They also OEM for several brands that probably would not like it spread around. Some big award winning amps that say they are made in the US and Italy - really they're not.
The attached photo is from our local Line Magnetic dealer. He said that the speakers were constructed and spec'd by Line Magnetic based on his own taste parameters. The LM field coil speakers were driven with the top of the line Line Magnetic equipment as seen on the photo, which include the field coil power supply on the foreground between the two speakers.How does it sound? IMHO, they sounded like music, very visceral and the presence of its presentation reminds me a lot like the Wilson Alexandria speakers of which he does carry as well. He also has the KEF Blade speakers for comparison as well.
Here's another LM field coil speakers that were reviewed in 2012 http://www.dagogo.com/line-magnetic-audio-lm-755i-field-coil-speaker-review
BTW, he's asking $65,000 for the pair.
If a thing's worth doing, it's worth doing well
(Proverb)
Edits: 12/16/16
I had checked the products link on the LM importer's home page and didn't see any loudspeakers, just drivers. So I didn't realize they made loudspeaker systems.
Until you listen to it as the horns don't honk at all. I know what the use of having them eh!. Perhaps this has do with the field coil driver's design.The overall sonic character is different than say Klipsch and JBL horn loaded speakers that I've listened to in the past.
If a thing's worth doing, it's worth doing well
(Proverb)
Edits: 12/20/16
(nt)
Dave I believe Kloss, like myself, just assumed Audio Asylum members were more knowledgeable than many apparently are. I understood Kloss' post as written and knew exactly what he was talking about. In fact I was shocked to learn anyone here didn't recognize an Altec speaker when they saw one!
I'm listening to: Just A Little Lovin by Shelby Lynn
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
Which Altec speaker? It looks similar to, or inspired by, a VOTT A4, but that's not quite it. Could it be a DIY effort, a semi-clone?
But supposing I had recognized it, I don't see how that would have helped make the connection to the A23 review. It wouldn't have been that hard for Kloss to simply name the speaker he's referring to, or provide a link or an explanation.
...picture looked like an Altec but no mention of that.
Hi mkuller,
Yes that's absolutely true. But, as I've said before. I believe John just assumed people here knew a little about audio history and would recognize, what I believe are, but might be wrong, one of the largest versions of Altec's VOTT speakers.
I'm listening to: Just A Little Lovin by Shelby Lynn
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
then you would have been SHOCKED to read that Stereophile actually reviewed a serious HORN SPEAKER!!!
And not just any horn speaker, but one with WE replica drivers (mid and tweet, IIRC).
As this happens far less frequently than a full eclipse of the sun here in foggy San Francisco, you would have certainly remembered it.
So when KLOSS mentioned a Horn Speaker review in the same post as Stereophile, I was able to extrapolate to Art's review of the horn speaker in question.
Having read that review, which was very positive, and JA's measurements, and being aware that many GREAT sounding speaker systems, including horns and electrostats, measure for crap, I still had no idea what he was ranting about.
Obvious , based on such a clueless retort and no ESL's dont measure for crap , only the bad ones ..
Edits: 12/16/16
Martin Logan seems to measure reasonably well:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/martinlogan-montis-loudspeaker-measurements
http://www.stereophile.com/content/martinlogan-prodigy-loudspeaker-measurements
There's an interference pattern in the high frequencies which results from measuring a large radiating surface in the near field, but you won't hear that.
Which one are those?
The 'bad ones'.
Are those the ones whose manufacturer has been reluctant to send examples to Stereophile for review because JA insists on 'measuring' them?
(nt)
if Magnapan is the 'panel' speaker whose manufacturer wouldn't send product to Stereophile for review for fear of the possible measurements?Didn't recall what speaker it was.
Anyone who wants to send me a free pair of Sound Labs big panels for free, I'll take them and give a crap how they measure. Same with Quad 57's for that matter.
And those 'Line Magnetic' horns which would sound pretty good with my 300B SET amps I'm betting.. ;-)
Edits: 12/18/16
reviewed both the 1.6 and 3.6 back in the day. Even JA acknowledges that his testing methodology fails with large dipolars:
" As I have written before in these pages, measuring physically large speakers with in-room quasi-anechoic techniques is in some ways a fruitless task. The usual assumption, that the measuring microphone is very much farther away than the largest dimension of the speaker being measured, is clearly wrong."
Clearly wrong.
And yet, he seemed to really like the latest Martin-Logan hybrids in the latest issue. :)
Johnny is lazy , he refuses to drag them outside and measure at the requires 2-3 M to capture the panel ..BTW any opinion on the LM graph posted ..? if you have any info /data on ESL's please to post it up for discussion ...
Regards
Edits: 12/17/16
see link to measurements of Quad ESL63
_
Make super easy diffusors:--> http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/everything-else/269366-making-easy-diy-depot-sound-diffuser-panels-step-step.html#post4215464
Horn Design Spreadsheet:--> http://libinst.com/SynergyCalc/
Your Point ...?Well apart from John's consistent inconsistencies , the 989 measurements are Superb compared to the LM Loudspeaker, especially measuring them at 50" .
LOL :)
Edits: 12/18/16
My Point:
"if you have any info /data on ESL's please to post it up for discussion ..."
Forgotten already?
_
Make super easy diffusors:--> http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/everything-else/269366-making-easy-diy-depot-sound-diffuser-panels-step-step.html#post4215464
Horn Design Spreadsheet:--> http://libinst.com/SynergyCalc/
Thanks for posting the links " for discussion " ..... :)
Any thoughts ...??
Regards
Edits: 12/19/16
Not really. I was just responding to the request.
Though I don't buy the "measurements are meaningless" stuff. Just that the measurements of most importance probably arent the ones people obsess over... like radiation pattern and room coupling are probably about 10x more important than response flatness, and impedance is mostly irrelevant with most amps and in-home sane listening levels.
No treble is still no treble, though, unless all hf hearing ability is shot. Balance is something ears can adapt to but a (basically) missing octave probably isn't.
_
Make super easy diffusors:--> http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/everything-else/269366-making-easy-diy-depot-sound-diffuser-panels-step-step.html#post4215464
Horn Design Spreadsheet:--> http://libinst.com/SynergyCalc/
"No treble is still no treble, though, unless all hf hearing ability is shot. Balance is something ears can adapt to but a (basically) missing octave probably isn't." - bwaslo
Less also not forget no "Bass" .... :)
PS: I'm sure John will not be back on this one ... :)
Regards
n
"All I can say is that the reasons for this speaker's undoubtedly superb sound quality are not readily apparent from its measurements. I hope to explore this subject in more depth in a follow-up."
Surprise, surprise.
I've auditioned the modern Quad ESLs a couple of times and to me they sound just like they measure, with a dished out midrange and mid-bass hump. They have great clarity, but they're not what I would call neutral.
Put together by Dave Slagle.
He removes the step-up transformer and builds in two PP el-34/6B4G power amps with x-over built into the small signal chain in the amp and two step-up/output transformers, one PP amp drives the treble panel while the other drives the two mid panels.
They finally had to ask me to leave as I spent most of the 3 day show in the room listening to what was about the best I have ever heard and electrostatic speaker sound.
Interesting setup , i would love to hear them ....
which was a mess due to ongoing remodel of the Marriott Hotel which has been the RMAF home these many years.
I am sure it would be WAY out of my price range but if you think about it, using the output transformer of a PP amp to drive the panel directly rather than stepping down in the amp then stepping up again in speaker makes all of the sense in the world. Bi-amping just adds icing to the cake.
I would have liked to hear that. I've only heard the 57s once, but liked them a lot.
I would also be curious to hear the modern Quad ESLs again, in a bigger room, to see if the bass balance improves with distance. I heard the 988s at a dealer in a long wall setup, listening almost near field i.e. 2-2.5m away, and the mid-bass was very prominent. Then the 2812s in a hotel room. I'm guessing the amount of dipole cancellation in the bass is very placement sensitive.
And more ESL measurements here....
_
Make super easy diffusors:--> http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/everything-else/269366-making-easy-diy-depot-sound-diffuser-panels-step-step.html#post4215464
Horn Design Spreadsheet:--> http://libinst.com/SynergyCalc/
John lives in Brooklyn. I wouldn't be surprised if he's reluctant to "drag them outside" for fear of being mugged and having them wind up in one of those "clubs". ;-)
Cheers,
SB
Hi Ivan,
Well at least you read both Art's and JA's reviews and already knew that they had reviewed a " heaven forbid " horn speaker! Now tell me you also knew that was an Altec speaker in John's OP and I'll know there's still some knowledgeable members here < < < < said tongue-in-cheek.
I'm listening to: Just A Little Lovin by Shelby Lynn
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
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