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In Reply to: RE: Blind testing assumes that one steps in the same river twice posted by Jay Buridan on November 07, 2016 at 14:46:05
...would have had a field day with the Heraclitus quote back in the "Chihuahua" days on the PropHead forum. There were certainly a lot of objectivist "dogs" barking...lol
If I understand your point, I would say that double blind testing is less reliable due to the listener being in "different rivers" during the listening session.
That said, blind testing (double blind is too problematic to achieve in one's home IMHO) can be useful at times if one is unsure of what they're hearing. It's no substitute for long term listening, however.
Follow Ups:
in the old days w/me vs eyespy and mtry. ARF! that was actually a lot of fun, eyespy being more reasonable that mtry.
they maintained that wire is wire and amps all sound the same. aaah the memories....
...regards...tr
Yep, Audioreview was full of those l'il boogers. But I think you stomped a few on PropHead, did you not? For awhile there, it rated almost as high as AR for objectivist non-experiential nonsense.
the militant Mediocritists are found on AK. :)
Whole slew of 'em on hydrogenaudio
omiGOD! those "people" there are just intractable. they pose as the elite educated and impede any and all audio improvement trails.
ignorami all.
...regards...tr
A group a malcontent pseudo scientific/intelectual assholes who can't stand subjectivists enjoying their hobby. It kills them that some audiophiles spend more money on audio than they will ever have in their miserable lives so they have to try to find some way to take a piss on the joy those audiophiles get from their hobby.
When one calss them on their bullshit they get banned. Don't burst that bubble!
they are likely the jerks who have been ousted from AA and AR (i had a ball making the lives of chihuahuas miserable.
a couple of the ARFed and the others bobbed their heads like the plaster pups with their nose pointing to the rear of the cars who back windows they were in.
...regards...tr
...that they have their own playground so they don't infect the rest of us with their crap. Interesting to see them fight amongst themselves though. But sheesh, bring them here with us- they fight, put them in a padded cell together, they fight. I guess you just can't please the deranged.
of the TOS (Terms of Service) rules when any notion of *opinion* is stated.
Violating TOS#8 is punishable by death. :)
that's where banned members like Mr. Voodoo, aka AJinFLA (Ammar Jadusingh) ended up along with guys like Arny Krueger.
I read a couple of threads including selecting amplifiers and bass traps. Naturally, all "well designed" amps sound the same. :)
Apparently, Arny is not one of Mr Voodoo's fans either. Even I've measured the benefits of using bass traps in my room.
Hillarious. Imagine these guys recomending their favorite burger joints. "Did you do a double blind taste comparison?" Then you are dellusional about your favorite burger!!!!!
Once again, you prove to be invaluable at finding (and re-finding) the most humorous posts.
Did you read the thread? Basically AJ is arguing with Krueger because the latter is claiming he heard differences in rooms with bass traps and AJ wants proof (can't hear it).
That is funny on so many levels, I don't know where to begin! Arny hearing something, for starters....
You owe me for one keyboard with spilled Coke all over it plus a $90 doctor visit for cracked ribs! TOOOOOOO funny!!!!! If you haven't read the whole thing, you gotta! :)
Anyway... sorry mods, for the thread jack. Now back to DBT's....
Arny:" Room treatments can effect such dramatic improvements that no DBTs are necessary...
That may explain the surprising recent skeptical comments about room acoustics - the commentators are stone deaf and don't hear the natural differences in the acoustics of various rooms that the rest of us hear. "
Priceless. :)
edit: I almost forgot to mention that jj is over there, too!
Edits: 11/15/16
bias effects. ""Room treatments can effect such dramatic improvements that no DBTs are necessary..." Psychoacoustics 101. Bias effects are in play regardless of how dramatic actual objective changes to the sound. And if one really thinks about it and is concerned about bias effects it when there are actual audible differences that we should be most concerned about them. It's really simple. If two components really do sound alike and someone forms a preference based on sighted bias they are not getting an objectively audibly inferior component. OTOH if bias effects are the persuasive factor in a choice between two components that are objectively audibly different one could end up with an objectively inferior product. It's funny that Arny, who has seemned to have dedicated his life to ABX DBTs would get such a basic aspect of bias effects so plainly wrong.
Arny doesn't miss many opportunities to pimp room treatments since his buddy Ethan (Winer) is in the room treatments business.
Cheers,
SB
> Arny doesn't miss many opportunities to pimp room treatments since his buddy Ethan (Winer) is in the room treatments business. <
And yet, the Godfather of Audio DBT, a guy who doesn't trust whether he heard a fart or his mommy calling him without at least 30 trials, has determined that DBT's are not necessary for room treatments.
I find that hilarious! But maybe there's hope for him.
nt
.
We don't know whether the added variable is helpful or harmful. All we know is that adding the visual changes the result.
Here's a true anecdote from my college days:
There was a life size sculpture of a human male figure in the area where I used to walk my Malamute. My dog would bark and growl at the sculpture, thinking that it was a threat. Though I never tried it, I'm sure that my dog would not have barked had he been blindfolded. Was he a better watch dog without the blindfold?
> There was a life size sculpture of a human male figure in the area where I used to walk my Malamute. My dog would bark and growl at the sculpture, thinking that it was a threat. Though I never tried it, I'm sure that my dog would not have barked had he been blindfolded. Was he a better watch dog without the blindfold? <
Excellent story - and I do now understand... I hope!
The answer, I think, is that sighted testing overinflates differences, while blind testing deflates them. Neither is terribly reliable, but unless one wants to blindfold oneself repeatedly, we go with sighted. And if the statue were actually a human intent on doing harm, sans blindfold would be best. Your dog took a "better safe than sorry" approach which in my mind made him an excellent watchdog! :)
obviously, animals and humans react to visuals vide the cat videos where someone places a cucumber behind the cat that is eating and they go frantic upon seeing it. same for the dog and the statue.
...regards...tr
But if you do it with extensive tests and with correlation to objective measurements as Floyd Toole did over decades it becomes a very useful tool to go along with other tests. In fact Toole claims that doing both types of tests he's come up with over 95% certainty of predicting an excellent speaker.
"But if you do it with extensive tests and with correlation to objective measurements as Floyd Toole did over decades it becomes a very useful tool to go along with other tests. In fact Toole claims that doing both types of tests he's come up with over 95% certainty of predicting an excellent speaker. "
Here's a video where Toole discusses this idea. The relevant discussion starts at 21 minutes 35 seconds. I can't seem to make that start time work with the youtube video embedding feature, so you'll need to fast-forward it manually to that point. Or you can use this link to go directly to the video on youtube at the right start time.
Floyd worked out which loudspeaker measurements to perform (the so-called "spinorama"), and I believe it was Todd Welti who figured out how to process the data in such a way as to give a figure of merit having a high correlation with listener preference on double-blind listening tests. There's some more discussion and links in this post .
But Infinity failed to provide parts support and left owners holding the bag (their bags)... Ouch!
nt
Toole was VP of engineering.
now THERE is a visual.
...regards...tr
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