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In Reply to: RE: Blind Testing posted by John Atkinson on October 28, 2016 at 04:13:08
Hi John,Oops, my mistake on those numbers. I'd known it was 7, actually, because at the time read it, I was hoping you were going to go for 8.
For the record, I applaud your effort for doing this. In fact, I suspect you did that because you know that's what me done -- compare.
Just so people know, Bob Stuart contacted me by phone just before my original MQA article was set to run. At that time, I made the offer to send him material produced by one of Canada's most prolific and most respected recording and mastering engineers -- material that goes all the way back to the '80s with those early digital recorders. He had the material set. Bob had also mentioned to me that he was making a trip to Canada and I even offered to bring him to his studio, which is in Toronto. Bob didn't appear interested on the phone, and a follow-up email to wasn't replied to. So it never happened.
These lack of proper comparisons are not only suspect, but also noticed by many -- you can read the responses below and, when I talk to many digital designers, they say the exact same thing. Like politicians' claims that have no substance or backing, manufacturers that do the same thing have stand the very strong chance of being doubted.
So good for at least doing that. Your results certainly don't convince me, but that's at least what has to be done.
Doug Schneider
SoundStage!
Edits: 10/28/16Follow Ups:
Thumbs up Doug.
Very informative post Doug.
I asked john to post samples of his pre and post MQA files for download and he declined. Not the full tracks mind you, but 30 second samples, as Michael Fremer does when he tests ADCs, carts, and phono stages.
Even though it has been pointed out to you numerous times that "proper comparisons" have been done, you continue with your story. Interesting.I'm curious Doug - exactly what are suggesting when you say that the comparisons that have been done were not "proper"?
Are you saying that MQA is purposefully misleading people?
That recording engineers who have compared their own music pre- and post-MQA have somehow been mislead?
That every equipment manufacturer and record label who has or is in the process of implementing MQA are doing so based on ignorance of the outcome?
I ask these questions because it appears as if your real argument is simply the fact that *you* have not had an opportunity to compare MQA to non MQA music. Therefore, every person who has is somehow suspect. Do I have that right, Doug?
Edits: 10/28/16
Hi Michael,I don't think I've ever read an article on your site, but you've taken quite a defensive position on this. At SoundStage!, I believe if our writers are going to put their opinions out there, they better have thick-enough skin.
As far as your words like "misleading" go, when a manufacturer publishes specifications or claims, do you automatically believe them? When a loudspeaker manufacturer says a bookshelf speaker has bass below 30Hz and a sensitivity of 90dB, do you buy that? Companies try to sell products -- let's leave it at that. But when a company claims "lossless" (which, in the world of computer files, has a pretty strict meaning), but takes a file that's, say, 24/192 and makes it 24/44.1 but gives no way to verify if you can take it back again, doesn't that raise your eyebrows? Maybe not...
Insofar as comparisons go, I believe JA is knowledgeable enough to know that, when claims like the ones MQA are making, comparisons are warranted. And what he did I'd call a start -- and what should have been done LONG ago, before guys like me (and many others) got on the Internet and said, "Hey, where are the comparisons to back up all these claims?" Obviously, guys like us don't just buy in...
As for the kinds of comparisons I'd like to see:
-- Varying file resolutions from 16/44.1 up to whatever.
-- Varying file vintages, meaning the years they were made -- key, I think.
-- Comparisons of varying resolutions of the same file to whatever MQA creates.
-- Ideally, I'd like to see the conversion to ensure any other remastering isn't being done beyond the process itself. Engineers know that a dB difference here or there can change sound drastically.
I could go on, but my cohort in Toronto was ready to supply recordings that go back to the '80s, digitally recorded at the bit depths and frequencies popular back then, right up to modern high-resolution recordings done at 192-384kHz. The whole nine yards, and see what differences there are, and, ultimately, which is better. These were recordings he would've done himself, so, like in JA's case, a good knowledge of what it's supposed to sound like, not like what you think it sounds like.
Is that really asking too much?
Doug
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Well Doug, when I make a claim, especially one that reflects on colleagues, I make it a point to know what I'm talking about.
You haven't read my MQA review, yet you have an opinion on my stance re. MQA. That's some shoddy opinion-making.
You continue to make claims about a lack of comparisons that have been done. You don't know about them because you have not bothered to do the research.
My skin is just thick enough to still know when someone is misinformed. The fact that I point this out typically unearths other people's thin skin.
It's time for our videos of this... follow the money.
Hey Michael,
Well, it's obvious that you don't like when people do respond to your questions -- you choose to ignore that.
So let's just call it a day on this thread... again.
Doug Schneider
SoundStage!
Hey Doug,It's obvious that you cannot accept the fact that you do not know what you are talking about and when this is pointed out, you continue talking without knowing what you are talking about.
This seems like a good place to call it a day.
Edits: 10/28/16
Sure Michael, carry on...
Doug
I would like to report on something our club did about 4 months ago. It is the River City Audio Society in San Antonio Texas. I purchased a Meridian Explorer2 with MQA decoding. I then went to The 2L Audio testbench and downloaded 12 tracks both in 16/44 and MQA. Both are derived from the same DXD master.. At our meeting we had about 20 people and set up a system with B&W speakers and Audio Research tube integrated amps. The files were played from JRiver 21 on a Macbook Pro. I simply would play the 16/44 file followed by the MQA file and then asked for opinions. After all the tracks were played the results were as follow. 5 out of 20 felt they heard differences but they were small . 15 people said they heard no difference in any of the comparisons. Of the 5 who heard something the term natural came up the most. I do want to say that the 2L files are so good it is hard to hear differences among any of the different different formats they offer. I am still waiting for streaming so I have a lot more music available to listen to.
Alan
.
Hi,This is a great story you told. That's also a pretty respectable sample size.
What's interesting to me is that 3/4 found no difference, 1/4 found a tiny difference. What's missing is if the 1/4 found the MQA better, or if they found the other better. Can you elaborate?
What's especially intriguing about this is that a portion of the press has thrown around some pretty big phrases, such as "game changer" and "beyond high resolution." But here we have JA's differences being not reliable and 3/4 of the people here hearing no difference, with 1/4 hearing a tiny difference. That doesn't sound like a "game changer" to me. I also can't help but wonder if that's why MQA doesn't like comparisons. In Munich, I asked for a comparison -- and didn't receive.
Doug Schneider
SoundStage!
Edits: 10/28/16
I stressed that I wanted participants to tell if they could hear a difference. 5 said yes. In a followup I asked if they could describe what the difference was they were hearing? Two clearly said the MQA felt more natural sounding. More musical (Whatever that means). That has also been my reaction to MQA. The other 3 could not put words to there experience of a difference.
I came away from this meeting that at least with this material and hardware differences in sound quality are very small. I still insist that the jury is out on MQA until a lot more familiar material is available to the consumer
Alan
Hi Alan,
Thanks for this. I agree -- a lot more of this stuff needs to be done. And you're right about 2L recordings -- they're very, very good to begin with.
Doug Schneider
SoundStage!
Doug:
This has been my concern as well. The only group that consistently seems to be utterly knocked out by MQA are a relatively small group of audio writers..maybe a dozen?
I have read about similar group tests like Alans, as many as 10 others written about on regional audiophile society pages and other forums like Audiocircle, and NONE, not one, had the same reactions as the press. Yes, some heard a difference, some preferred it, some did not. But the huge difference in reaction between ordinary listeners and reviewers is just too large to ignore.
Not once did I encounter the word "stunning", or a phrase like a "new era in digital".
I'm not sure it's a dozen!
As far as I can tell, there are two aspects to MQA:
1) Compression -- this is useful for folks with bandwidth issues. I'm not one of them (heck, my generous cellphone plan now follows me around the world), but for those who are, knock your socks off and use it.
2) Sound Improvement -- this is all that interests me. This supposed "time-smearing" fix.
Out of those two things we have gotten from -- I'd argue, less than a dozen -- absolute raves that this encoding scheme is the Next Big Thing. But the company won't do comparisons, and when they are done, they're small to nonexistent. It makes me wonder, too.
Doug
Well..Robert Harley, John Darko, Lavorgna, Jim Austin, John Atkinson, and little tid bits from show reports from a few others. So yeh, maybe you are right. I think Chris Connaker has beeen mostly neutral leaning slightly positive when he was sent a Meridian DAC and files.Darko is interesting because he used his usual technique, feigning tremendous skepticism, and then having a "conversion."
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Nt
as do the posts in CA.
Perhaps you should read the Roon forum. There, representatives of both Roon and Signalyst (HQ Player) clearly state their opinions that MQWA/Meridian's first concern is commerce, regardless of inconvenience to consumers. It is all there in black and white. Lots of interesting discussion there.
I typically do not read forums. I find it to be a waste of time and rarely does it have any relevance to what I do.
I decided to comment here to try to staunch the flow of BS and lies about me, mainly perpetrated by you, Isaak.
Why should anyone read his?
For a reviewer to say this is to admit blatantly that he/she does not do sufficient research before writing pieces/posts giving unqualified support to a new product combination which others cannot readily access or judge for themselves.
As I pointed out, CA takes a much more balanced view, as do posters in other forums.
that I can occasionally get useful tips from a forum, like how to repair a leaky faucet or get Roon to behave as it should. But the notion that reading forums constitutes "research" is preposterous, unless I suppose its public-opinion research.
another reviewer who do not value the opinion of users and readers and therefore do not care to collate and listen to them.
By research, I refer to the collation of views, especially those of other repected reviewers that are reflected through forum postings.
This attitude is simply an egocentric appraoch to audio reviewing in particular and journalism in general.
"For a reviewer to say this is to admit blatantly that he/she does not do sufficient research before writing pieces/posts giving unqualified support to a new product combination which others cannot readily access or judge for themselves."
You think reading posts like yours is research? I write about audio, not psychology.
Now we are really off the rail.
Egocentricity embodied by this rush of posts of little meaning says quite a lot.
The Roon forum is a wealth of information. With direct participation of the principals of Roon and other important hardware and software developers. I have found easy and quick solutions to little issues I have had with Roon.Are you delusional? Are you having paranoid fantasies about people "spreading lies and BS" about you? Perhaps you need to seek help?
Edits: 10/28/16
Isaak, you have been baiting Michael with imagined stuff recently and can't seem to stop. Who is in need of help?
Baiting? Give me a break..is this pre school?
Did you, or did you NOT claim your system was "hacked"? You clearly did.
My system has never been hacked whatever that means. I'll ask Lucy.
Edits: 10/28/16 10/28/16
You should be ashamed. You know what you claimed. I never took you for a lap dog.
Isaak, what are you talking about?
Nice try, Isaak. Do you really think your childish attempts at diversion work?Your silly misleading "pimping" post being the most recent example of your BS.
Edits: 10/28/16
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