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Based on the dozens of show reports I have read, CES really represents the worst this hobby has to offer.Audio journalists running around and just like good little puppies, happily reporting on the newest $20,000 interconnects, $35,000 DACs, $38,000 CD players, and yes, now, $50,000 equipment racks, yes you read that right, a $50,000 rack from Magico.
Excuses made for bad sounding rooms, regurgitating marketing drivel offered up by snake oil salesmen, and even worse nonsense.
Manufacturers and their buzz words, chasing hot trends.
The sad things is, as discussed here, there have never been more great sounding, solidly engineered, reasonably priced audio equipment available.
Edits: 01/14/13Follow Ups:
....... just like any other Las Vegas "Trade Show" - nothing but an excuse for rich folks (and others with liberal expense accounts) to spend lots of money at the game tables, in the titty bars, and patronize the towns myriad number of prostitutes.
Not that there's anything wrong with that ;-)
.
Tell me about it ;-)
I lived in D.C. for twelve years!
> nothing but an excuse for rich folks (and others with liberal expense
> accounts) to spend lots of money at the game tables, in the titty bars,
> and patronize the towns myriad number of prostitutes.
CES is actually unpopular with Las Vegas's hotels/casinos as visitors
gamble much less than vacationers. Don't know about the "comfort" industry :-)
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
nt
nothing is more boring than the truth - bukowski
.
You mean SourceInterlink won't foot the bill for a bit of fun? :)
Anyone? Regardless, CES does suck and has for a long time.ET
Edits: 01/19/13
nt
The below is a quote from an email from a noted audio review who writes for a major audio magazine.
"And that is that for electronics,
one does not reach a point at which
further improvement does not amount
to much, one reaches a point where further
improvement is non-existent.
With speakers, it is a little different.
If you want a big speaker to fill big
spaces and want one with lots of drivers
then a great deal of money can be spent
to good effect if that is the sort of
thing you are looking for
(For smaller speakers with the idea of
being nearfield monitors, this is not really true
however. There is a limit).
But it is important to understand that the
reality of this picture is not often admitted.
The industry lives in part on selling
high priced products to rich people. And
there is a kind of agreed upon view that
the high priced products are at least
a little better.
Agreed upon but not always in fact true.
All you have to do is compare the measurements
of the PSB T2 with those of the Wilson MAXX3
to get the point. No better as measured, the WIlson,
in fact a good bit worse. Just louder and costing
more. If you want to, you can believe there
is some unknown quasi-mystical wonderfulness
available at huge prices. But it is surely
not observable in the measurements."
When they discover the center of the universe, a lot of people will be disappointed to discover they are not it. ~ Bernard Bailey
This noted audio reviewer is a wise man.
But playing devil's advocate there are many who will argue that measurements are half the story.
There would be many who will argue that a PSB speaker cannot compete with a Magico, Wilson, Vivid, or Estelon speaker in regards to fit and finish and parts quality.
There will be some reviewers like Micheal Fremer, who talk about the "visceral impact" of a large speaker like the Maxx3.
Speakers, in many cases, are trophies.
I say this reviewer's premise may even apply more to amplifiers, where the some of the prices just defy any logic.
"This noted audio reviewer is a wise man.
But playing devil's advocate there are many who will argue that measurements are half the story.
There would be many who will argue that a PSB speaker cannot compete with a Magico, Wilson, Vivid, or Estelon speaker in regards to fit and finish and parts quality."
By your own suppositions, "there are many who will argue", if saying the reviewer is a wise man is self-serving. Perhaps your point is, he's not wiser than you.
"There will be some reviewers like Micheal Fremer, who talk about the "visceral impact" of a large speaker like the Maxx3."
What are you criticizing, here?
"Speakers, in many cases, are trophies."
Please cease the vague and wacky claims. Your budget is not an universal yardstick.
Be sure to tell us about the next show you don't attend.
I've moved to So. Fla. And I sure do want to thank you for turning me on to the Gallo Ref. Series speakers. I still have my full setup and it sounds glorious in my new home which has cathedral ceilings.
I hear that you have switched to Stradas. What prompted this and how do you like them in comparison to your Ref. 3s???
Best Wishes,
-RW-
-RW-
Hi Richard. I borrowed a pair of Stradas and quickly learned they outperformed the highs and mids of the Ref 3s in every way, though the Ref 3s are very good speakers. I added a pair of Gallo TR-3D subs (self-powered) so that my 845 SET amps don't have to drive the lowest frequencies (the Stradas are only flat to maybe 70-80 Hz). As a result I have effectively upgraded to the Gallo 3.5s - same woofers, mids and treble drivers -- at a lower cost and putting an easier load on the amps.One of these days I'll have to get around to selling the Ref 3s and the original Gallo sub amp.
Edits: 01/18/13
Please be sure to give me 1dt crack at that sub-amp, I remember how well it performed for you...
-RW- And please give my best to Terri!!
-RW-
I'm reasonably sure the $50,000 rack was commissioned by the CEO of one of the companies I work for. He's a Magico nut. He runs Q7s and Q5s and I believe he's even getting Boulder to remake his amps in the same finish as the speakers for his Hong Kong condo (he's part of the reason why Boulder even has a 3000 series, they were practically designed specifically for him). The fact he has a condominium on The Peak should give you some idea of how much money he has. Real estate up there starts at around $20m (that's US$, not HK$) for an apartment.$50k for a rack is insane money, but it was chump change to him. I don't mind, because if even a little of his insanity helped fund the sign off on the new $13k Magico S1, it means I get a bit closer to hearing what all the fuss is all about.
I guess that's the new way. Because there are so few of us buying reasonably-priced equipment these days, the designs in that region get funded and the technology trickles from either entry-level or ultra-high-end sales. Rather than fuming over $38,000 DACs, you should be hoping enough well-heeled audiophiles buy this thing so that a $3,800 or even a $380 DAC can leverage some of that technology in the stratospherically priced model. Face it; our hobby is now at least part-funded by patronage.
As for the journalists writing about these things, they write for high-end audio titles - why would you expect anything else? If I read a show report of NAMM, I know damn well the content will be very different depending on whether I'm reading it in Guitar Player or Guitar Aficionado. I'm not likely to read about the latest range of deluxe finishes on a Benedetto arch-top in Player and I'm just as unlikely to read about Squier's new super-budget Strats in Aficionado. The only difference with audio is... it's all Afiicionado.
Edits: 01/18/13 01/18/13 01/18/13 01/18/13
Interesting story, if true.
And...I have to agree with your statement.. "Face it; our hobby is now at least part-funded by patronage."
I guess I should not complain about being subsidized by the super rich in this hobby.
When I saw the headline to this thread I new it would be somebody wining about the high price of audio gear . Dude if you don't like or can't afford hi end gear don't buy it , but there are many of us that can and do , so give us a break yeah . The embarrassment is yours .
"Dude if you don't like or can't afford hi end gear don't buy it , but there are many of us that can and do , so give us a break yeah ."
You've paid $50K for a rack? If so then you are a fool and (most probably) some kind of con-man.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
*
Well Tony , name calling certainly tells us what kind of a man you are . Chill out you'll live longer.
My remarks don't apply to you , unless you personally have paid $50K for a rack.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Actually I spent about a year and a half designing , building and welded my stand , then had it powder coated and filled it with a 25 , 30 , 45 mix of lead , sand and nickel back in the early 90's , cost me about $1200. But thats not the point , if someone has the income and resources and is comfortable with spending 50 large on a stand , why would it bother you ?
" But thats not the point , if someone has the income and resources and is comfortable with spending 50 large on a stand , why would it bother you ?"
I am bothered only to the extent that society, the economy and the government are controlled by a mixture of fools, knaves and sociopaths. I view the existence of this product as a symptom of a trend in this direction.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
I guess we all look at things differently , but I find it hard to understand how having expensive products on the market and consumers that can afford them being seen as the country being control by fools knaves and sociopaths . To me it shows that there is still some prosperity on this continent , is that not a good thing ? Would you be happier if everyone was finically struggling ?
The wife and I are active members of an audio club , we visit folks with micro systems and tiny apartments to folks with no holes barred audio systems and houses to match , we enjoy visiting and listening to music with them all equally . We don't look at the more affluential people as fools or sociopaths , but as passionate music lovers , as I said , we all look at things differently .
Don't be to quick to judge people you don't no .
Have a great day .
Anyone that thinks speakers don't improve with size and cost hasn't owned as many pairs as I have , Far as I can figure 15 pairs in the past 40 years , still have 5 pairs .
It's easy to hear a considerable improvement as you move up from one of my carefully chosen and setup three systems to the next .
I love my smaller two ways as they have an uncluttered sound but after a few hours you relies your missing something , a considerable amount of detail and impact are the most prevalent ,something that adds substance and emotion to the musical event .
High quality speakers as well as electronics may not WOW people as they may expect , but if you engage live music as often as we do you can clearly hear how much closer good electronics get to the live event .
You live far away from Wall Street and Washington, D.C. and are not directly under their influence. Consider yourself lucky.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
But there seems to be a stratification that has uber-expensive gear on one end and "reasonably-priced" gear on the other. And, thank God, there has never been a better time for those of us in the reasonably-priced camp.
You can now buy a complete 5.1 surround sound system of *very* high quality for $5,000 - 9,000. In order to meaningfully surpass this quality level, you have to spend about 10x as much. This is a very good time to be an audiophile on a budget...
-RW-
-RW-
Dude. Obviously while multi-tasking on your iPhone, answering your emails, and checking your portfolio, you did not take the time to understand the OP.
It is not about the PRICES. It is about the VALUE. Prices, as NOTED in the show reports themselves, especially on Soundstage, seem totally arbitrary.
I know damn well there is very expensive gear that is worth every penny based on performance, parts quality, and engineering. Most of it is not.
And dude..I could have easily afforded to spend 3 to 4 times what I spent on my system, but mama did not raise no fool. I do well, but I don't pay for audio jewelry.
And dude..I recently went to a few local dealers auditioning a few pieces for a new system I am building, and I saw not one woman, not one man under 60, is that what you want, dude?
NT
"I know damn well there is very expensive gear that is worth every penny based on performance, parts quality, and engineering. Most of it is not."
Be that as it may, how do you know this?
I know this because I work in domestic and international manufacturing. I have been in hundreds, if not a thousand factories, including high end audio factories. I know how much parts, labor, and related cost.
"...including high end audio factories."
As it may indirectly pertain to my question, can you expand on this?
No. Your Question and Answer schtick is old.
No? Thanks.
Dude , your going to the wrong audio salon .The one we frequent the most has at least a few Hi-end female customers and most of the rest are under 60 , as are the wife and I .
If anyone else would like to post in on the ages and gender of the clientele of there favorite salon please do .
Well I guess things are Hunky Dory up in Canada.
Regardless, you did not address the fact that your original accusation of another "whiny post" about expensive gear, was unfounded.
Nope I sure didn't . You new what you were going to find before you read the CES reports , so if you new it was going to bother you why did you , just to have something to wine about ?
I think I'll go to the Rolls Royce dealer on Monday and tell them how much I hate the high price of cars .
.
;D
You mad?
Mad as in angry? No. Mad as in crazy? Yes.
Just seems that way...
*
"The sad things is, as discussed here, there have never been more great sounding, solidly engineered, reasonably priced audio equipment available."There is nothing unique about your observation as it pertains to audio. The same holds true for various industries. There have never been more great-tasting, well-made wines priced under $20 than today. Yet the First Growths of France always grab the lion's share of attention. People tend to fixate over what they can't have. Such is the plight of mankind.
Nor is there anything special about audio that insulates it from the vagaries of capitalism. In the final analysis your favorite industry is largely based on designers and salesmen chasing a buck. And that’s a good thing inasmuch as it yields a certain "trickle-down" effect that’s already been addressed in this thread.
Edits: 01/16/13
Like many of us gathered here, I am passionate to the core about outstanding sound. I am a music lover 1st. Then comes the gear to extract that lovely digital data for my listening pleasure. I am a cable/power cord guy to a fault. And yes, I have to draw the line at a $50K rack...
Any good Beverly Hills plastic surgeon can get you a great rack for less than $20K
...these cones could work.
Why all these show cars and 'concept' cars?
What's up with the price of those damn exotic cars?
Why not a show dedicated to Focuses and Jettas?
The sad things is, as discussed here, there has never been more great driving, solidly engineered, reasonably priced auto equipment available.
Stupid shows and their stupid cool stuff.
the OP starts adding factually incorrect political commentary as *proof*. :)
...it's a SHOW not a swap meet.
There seems to be a growing sentiment of reviewers appearing pompous for receiving preferential treatment. Well, some folks are there to work. That's right, hawk products.
...in the old days it was to the owners of brick and mortar stores.Who are they selling to at CES today?
I suspect reviewers are a bigger part of the show than they used to be, with more ezines and fewer stores.
Back in about 1995 I recall seeing JGH enter a display room - as though the Red Sea parted for him.
Again, Corey Greenberg was treated similarly.
Reviewers have always been treated well - after all, no one wants to offend one.
That's ok as long as real B&M store buyers aren't offended.
Those audiophile hangers-on can get out of the way.
Edits: 01/15/13
Sorry to say, reviewers are EASILY the most arrogant people at CES. It's pathetic.
Do you think it would be progressive to ban reviewers on consumer days?
...and speaking of him, I don't know if you saw the letters to the editor in the latest TAS.
and was not surprised. :)
I no longer subscribe to TAS......but am pretty sure I know exactly who you are talking about.
...issue of my subscription and I'm not renewing.
After 35 years.
Sad day...
How come?
...without HP's writing, there is little in TAS that interests me any longer.
Every time I read your thoughts on music, I say to myself, 'Why do I fight with you? You have a lot of good insights on music, and you're not really an 'equipment' guy.'
And then, you come up with something like you're quitting TAS because HP isn't there anymore?
When I first joined the AA, I remember you making a post where you said that when you started at TAS, you met HP and didn't like him!! I can't see that HP has gotten any better since then.
With your knowledge and musical good taste, why would you pick a non-musical guy like HP to be your hero? Just wondering.
TJE
Why try to be something we are not?
We are both equipment, AND music people.....
Without enjoying both, this place wouldn't be here..........
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
have to like HP in order to be here, do I?
As far as music is concerned, once you get past a 45-year-old Casino Royale album, HP "don't know too much."
TJE
It's a really big playground, and we're all kicking the ball around.
It's just like the movies... some critics are just only going want to review musicals. I so hate musicals, - man, - just hate 'em. I don't bother wasting my time reading those reviewer's work....
I have zero interest in reading anything that Michael Fremer might write: just zero. Maybe some day we would become great pals: but I still think turntables are horrible. I could totally like someone, but not their art. as a matter of fact......
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Well, HP has been marginalized for a long while now.
I agree with you ultimately. But we also have to admit he passed on some
bad habits to Harley and Valin.
I heard rumours he is having a hard time getting in anything new to review over at his site. Unfounded, of course.
nt
Your attempt at some sort of comparative sarcasm has failed.
First, a study published recently cited that 90% of the concept technology found at audio shows makes its way into actual consumer products. Unlike in audio.
Secondly, if you are familiar with how high performance cars like Ferraris are built, and I bet you are not, they are worth every penny paid. The part county, quality, and finish are pushed to the human limit. The $25,000 breaking system in Ferrari will save your life.
In high audio there is no quantifiable price to performance measurement. Being mostly subjective, there is plenty of room for gouging and worse.
What?
One man's over priced crap is another man's 'value.'
If you take the time to review the history of audio, there is solid 'trickle down.'
Check out the KEF 50th anniversary speakers for a current example.
Everyone don't look at current technology the same way.
BTW, I meant to say 90% of concept technology found at AUTO shows...
One major exception was the electric car, which the oil companies killed when the original concept cars started appearing at auto shows around 30 years ago.
Henry Ford and Thomas Edison had electric car technology way back when in the 1910's. They even had a plan whereby you could drive into a station and in about a minute or so they could swap out your depleted batteries for a freshly charged set.
The concept failed not because of oil, but because of WWI. You couldn't change batteries in the field. Both men had invested millions in the concept and planning.
Stu
It seems it is even more interesting than that..
from the PBS website:
1920
During the 1920s the electric car ceases to be a viable commercial product. The electric car's downfall is attributable to a number of factors, including the desire for longer distance vehicles, their lack of horsepower, and the ready availability of gasoline.
1966
Congress introduces the earliest bills recommending use of electric vehicles as a means of reducing air pollution. A Gallup poll indicates that 33 million Americans are interested in electric vehicles.
1970s
Concerns about the soaring price of oil -- peaking with the Arab Oil Embargo of 1973 -- and a growing environmental movement result in renewed interests in electric cars from both consumers and producers
stunned to read that both Ford and Edison had collaborated to create an electric car system and that many of theoir ideas are similar if not identical to those being bandied about today.
Again the advent of WWI doomed thier efforts. The war meant that the military needed vehicles that could easily be refilled and that could be refueled over very long and isolated terrain.
The gas auto was considered a God send in eliminating the tons of horse poop that littered the streets of , say, New York City. Then the fumes of the cars became an issue even back then. Of course Edison saw it as a way of increasing his profits....
At any rate, the circle seems to be completing itself.
Stu
"BTW, I meant to say 90% of concept technology found at AUTO shows..."
I don't think you should want to take credit for that. It's car hustler-speak. If you were to say '90% of current technology', for practical purposes that's what it is.
The oil companues did not kioll the 1st Gen electric cars
no one bought them except for Ed Begley
Is Fiskar broke yet?
...I am curious who will review it first (Stereophile or TAS) I don't think my rack projects the 'holographic image' as it should - I am interested in upgrade ;)
nothing is more boring than the truth - bukowski
The Press' job is to report on it - it's the reader's job to rant and rave. Granted the press these days is hardly Walter Cronkite quality.
Personally I agree with you on the stands - but I'm not surprised that it came from who it comes from. Their prices are hilarious.
I agree it is the job of the press to report on it, but is it not also there job to, as Art Dudley, proclaimed, "call bullshit" out on $9500 USB cables and $80,000 glass speakers?
Jeff Fritz at Soundstage has no problem doing this..granted, he pissed off a lot people..but so what?
I am neutral on Magico. I have heard some impressive demos of their speakers, but this Wolf character has lost his marbles.
this one...
To me the factors at play are....
Are the make up of the internal components costly, or approaching the retail cost? Is the dealer accommodation/discounts high?
How does the item "perform" compared to others in its class?
Does it have a unique, creative, insightful topology/design?
And finally, are the pricing structures of more expensive items influencing the pricing structures of others?
You may not think that pure, single crystal gold strands mixed in with single crystal copper & silver wiring perform better than regular old copper, (and it may not in your system, based on other factors), but you can't deny that that $2000 USB cable costs over $1000 to make...
($120 Speltz anti-cables likely do not cost more than $4 or $5)
The high end consists of exclusive, unique, artisan, creative products that are (supposed to be), beautiful to look at, and high performance audio reproduction systems. They have no relation to BestBuy IPOD boomboxes, if you judge them on the basis of a cheap dorm room stereo, then you must necessarily be disappointed & even offended. These are NOT stereo systems..
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
right? So why is the membership remaining silent while that guy from Stereophile (J.V. Serinus) makes you guys look like a bunch of dim-witted oafs, who are more interested in playing the game of one guy farting his favorite song and the rest of the club trying to guess what the song is?
BTW, if any other audiophile groups want to do this, and according to Stereophile, there are a whole lot of us out there, when you start the contest, 'Sunshine of Your Love' and 'In-a-gadda-da-vida' are not allowed - they are too easy.
A guy in NYC recently farted the entire 'Rhapsody in Blue', but he had to be taken to the emergency ward afterwards. Hey, they don't call us OLD FARTS for nothing!
But when you seriously look into this game, it does have more to do with music than do most audiophile get-togethers!
Anyway, back to the Bay Area. Maybe they could change their name to the Bay Area Bombers! Maybe if these guys jumped up and down, beat their chests, grunted and growled, you being the one who can read and write, could make a post about their not being able to listen to music correctly.
It's a shame that none of us know how to listen to music correctly with the exception of audio reviewers!
Life is cruel like that. Well, I'm going out to swing on fire escapes and grunt at girls walking in the street.
TJE
NT
ny
.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
do you know the Reducers? I have one of their albums. I think it has a racetrack on the cover?
I agree with what you said below about when critics don't like a band, it sometimes makes the band more creative.
TJE
The Sneetches, Psychofunkapus, Mrs Green, Capture the Flag, Papas Culture, Cake... Counting Crows/Sordid Humor...
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Loved those Primus videos......
........I was a vegetarian for 15 minutes... until the main course.
*
but, - loved going to their shows... Tuxedomoon left for Belgium shortly after I moved to the Bay Area, & before we started up Sordid....
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
OK, I was trying to be funny, but seriously, I feel that the guy from Stereophile disrespected you guys. I'm shocked that someone from your group didn't come on and say something about it.
I felt it was a very condescending piece, not only to your group, but to all audiophiles, and I'm shocked that it got past JA (or whomever) and made it to press.
TJE
The piece reminded me of a little experiment I took part in at the Audiokarma Fest in Detroit several years ago. A cable manufacturer played three different sets of cables through the system, and after the third cable, asked the attendees which cable they preferred. Although not disclosed, I presumed the cables were demonstrated in ascending order of price. My wife and I preferred the second cables, those being the middle priced cable. (though I admit I raised my hand claiming to prefer the least expensive cable, hoping to possibly tweak the representative.) Based upon the lack of raised hands among the attendees to any of the cables, I posited that most of the attendees could not hear any differences., or were so unconfident in their opinions that they preferred to remain silent.
Well, the cable representative proceeded to tell us that the third cable was the best, despite what I heard, and which also just so happened to be their most expensive cable. It may very well have been better. In another system. But as I recall the speakers were Ushers, and a little dark sounding to my ears. I suspect I preferred the second pair of cables because were a probably a little brighter on top, which matched with the Ushers in a way that the more expensive cables, while perhaps a little more neutral, did not.
I go to at least one live music event a week, consisting of acoustic jazz, heavy metal, bluegrass, americana/roots, a little blues, and some progressive/alternative, and some pop. I think I have a handle on what live music sounds like. I found the cable reps' response humorous. Despite what appears to be JVS' similar response, I found his piece more condescending to those who disagree with him than I did the cable rep. I liken it to the Napoleon complex. I think some reviewers feel they have passed the hazing process to be a reviewer, someone has told them they have reached the audio mountaintop, and they have developed divine wisdom, and their subjective opinions have moved into the realm of fact. It is the same thing as politicians who graduated from Ivy league schools. Or our local professional football coach who, when asked questions he considers to challenge his coaching, responds that he played the game, they did not, thank you very much, so stop challenging me.
You see, they are smarter than the rest of us. Don't believe me? Just ask 'em. I don't speak for JA, but I suspect his job is to print various points of view, in part to get us talking about an article, which has obviously succeeded.
""they have developed divine wisdom, and their subjective opinions have moved into the realm of fact.""
Good point. I believe that I have observed some behavior that appears to mirror what you describe...
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
still getting royalty checks: it's only art man, - so I don't really get offended when people don't like it. I actually like it when people take the piss: abuse is often better than praise, - it's usually more creative, & often funnier...
Haven't been to a BAAS thing in a while, although I wanted to go to the budget DAC thing, but had a friend in town. Mostly the BAAS folks are major super cool, level-headed, open minded, and sweetly grateful & supportive folks.
Wheeeeeee.....
And so it goes. The question in my mind is what the heck you're on about: and is it that same old spiel about how audiophiles on an AUDIO-GEAR-WEB-SITE only care about gear at the expense of music, yadda-yadda-yadda-yip.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
N/T
"And finally, are the pricing structures of more expensive items influencing the pricing structures of others?"
Bingo..THIS is the question.
This pricing one one upsmanship started with cables in my opinion.
It is a very real dick measuring contest feeding the egos of some of the players involved.
Funny how when the Wislon XLF pricing was announced at 200K, Magico raised the price on their Q7 by 20 grand. And so on and so forth.
One emboldens the other.
Yeah..
I agree with you on that one.. there are other factors involved here, as I mentioned, - but I don't have a point to argue with you on this particular component.
I also think that Magico speakers do not sound that great, but I do understand their retail price. they SHOULD have those retail prices based on their internal components, - but their performance is sub par: at least in my experience. I heard them with VAC amps, so enough said there.
My point is that in some cases, (my CDP/pre manufacturer), things are also priced too low, and need to be adjusted accordingly: (Manley Stingray). It is understandable how "artists" get ego involved, as a musician/songwriter, I've seen some pretty whacky stuff and silliness with bands, songwriters, singers.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
I have an interesting take on Magico.I think there speakers are highly revealing, and maybe the most transparent to source speaker out there. It is often commented on how they sound so so at shows. I have heard them mostly with very expensive nothing special solid state. The Magico's often reveal what overpriced junk a lot of solid state is. They sound much better with tubes to me.
Now I absolutely think Alon Wolf hyper engineers his products and is one brilliant guy who does not compromise. But...the customer is paying for what is essentially a low volume product. I also think Wolf has lost his bearings and is appealing to those who want to be part of an exclusive club.
You can argue all day if a Q5 is worth as much as a Porsche.
Your Manley example is interesting. I agree, that for a few years, she was under pricing a lot of the products. But I believe a very silly business decision was made to jack up prices by FOURTY percent OVERNIGHT.
My local dealer said it was a death knell for him and he has sold very few pieces since. There should have been gradual increases along the way.Her justification was "the pro audio guys don't squawk at price increases". Uh, sorry, different market.
It's her business, but I can't imagine raising the price of the Mahis from $2500 to $4000 helped sales.
Edits: 01/15/13
"I think there speakers are highly revealing, and maybe the most transparent to source speaker out there."
Maybe so, but then if so they should sound exactly like live music when a superb recording is played. There is no question of "revealing" anything. If something was audible in the live performance it should be audible in the playback, otherwise not. If anything else is "revealed" it is an artifact (i.e. defect) in the record - playback process.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
I agree with you..
but "transparent to sources" can also mean revealing the electronic artifacts of the playback system chain as you noted...music server, dac, cd player, turntable, preamp, power amps, cables etc.
I have heard the Magicos half a dozen times shown with mega watt, clinical sounding solid state, and they very much reveal all the silicon haze added to the signal.
The best I have heard them sound was with a SOTA reel to reel playing Tape Project dubs.
Yes, Magico speakers are insanely expensive...the cheapest in the Q series is 30 grand, easily double my expenditure on speakers, but I must admit they are as transparent as anything I have ever heard.
"The high end consists of exclusive, unique, artisan, creative products that are (supposed to be), beautiful to look at, and high performance audio reproduction systems."
Oh?
I agree with the last clause, but that's it...
Rick
so, - you have to define it for yourself....
a certain amp manufacturer calls himself an artist, - then he is one. You can disagree, and say, "dude, that's not art:" but that's your opinion, - that's not art to you.
The fact is that some of these guys do not, and are not, interested in making anything like a Sony surround system. They are interested in building a unique & idiosyncratic & esoteric component, or group of components, that offers up an unique insight & personal statement about what they think is great sound; with their particular taste in music, and what they want to hear. The manufacturer of Jadis equipment, (for example), is one such person. I have spoken to him at length, he's never been interested in making anything that sounds good with anything other than a particular sub-genre of classical music. If you like his music, his speaker choice, his source choice, and his "take" on what really makes it sound special, then you might buy his gear. If you don't, then you can go pee up a tree. He couldn't care less if you like the Steve Miller band. If you like the Steve Miller band, then you should go out and buy someone else's amps...
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
"If you like the Steve Miller band, then you should go out and buy someone else's amps..."
And at the limit the system will include THE disc that sounds good on it???
I am probably less concerned about I/D than some folks for various reasons, a key one being that my system lives in a louvered closet. But the sound on the other hand...
Rick
Well I'm in the spend $25 max for USB cables camp for video. There is zero diference in video cables and they were tested by video gurus in Canada - there is ZERO measurable difference in ANY and ALL parameters and no one watching could tell the cheapies apart from the very expensive. Zilch.
For audio - at least cables do measure differently - there is "something" there that you can hang your hat to - even if it's outside the supposed audible spectrum. "Selling cables is safer than stealing and easier than working."
Magico has sounded nice - just nowhere near the price points IME. The Acoustic Zen Crescendo is much better than anything I've heard from Magico - better than anything I've heard from Wilson too. Fractions of the price.
That's me calling it like I hear it. Problem is when reviewers say something negative people get on their case - look at Stereophile saying something luke warm (kinda negative) about Bryston - the S hit the fan.
The problem is that people are "afraid" to look bad. People, including reviewers, often wish to placate the masses - and be viewed as part of the club.
If you say something about cables being overpriced or snake-oil you as a reviewer are taking chances of losing most of your readership. The magazines that did are no longer in business! And hey they at least measure differently. USB does not. Still, if it costs $9500 it must be better - it just MUST be cause look at the price.
I met a cable seller who had a terrific professional website selling silver cables. This guy made them in his garage - has no degree in anything, and has a silk screen company putting his label on the skin. People raved about great they are. Whatever - at least he didn't charge obscene prices - but he did drive a new Lincoln and had a big house in prime area of Vancouver Island. Like I said ""Selling cables is safer than stealing and easier than working."
I would love to hear the Acoustic Zen Crescendo in a vinyl setup. It produced the best sound at the 2012 CAS via a digital source.
can you post a link to the study of usb cables?
I don't know what I was thinking yesterday - I was thinking of HDMI cables not USB.
I have nothing to say about USB.
There was a video on the CBC about HDMI but either they took it down or I can't access from Hong Kong.
and most of them are really good ones...
1. Every review is a more detailed review, after the reviewer has already liked the product.
2. Every INDIVIDUAL piece of equipment is part of a complex series of interactions between other pieces of equipment, room, cables, etc etc etc...
3. Reviews often are done in the midst of other reviews, so proper & recommended application of the review sample is not always optimum.
""Problem is when reviewers say something negative people get on their case""
If that is the case, (and I would hope that this would never be), then they are a horrible reviewer. They should only be reviewing gear that they like, applying it properly, and be doing so independently, without any outside influence whatever...
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Why, apart from sleazy commercial reasons, shouldn't a competent reviewer give a POS product an accurate review?
Sometimes the reviewer gets lucky and the POS equipment blows up. Even then excuses seem to be made. IMO the manufacturer should get a one paragraph review stating the obvious. The manufacturer should be on the way to bankruptcy as a result of his inability to deliver working products.
The value of the magazine to the reader is in the information it contains. The information is maximized if half the reviews are positive and half negative. This doesn't happen, because the magazines are not run for the benefit of the readers, but for for sleazy commercial reasons. This has nothing to do with separation of content and advertising. It can be verified simply by observing the mix of positive and negative reviews.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
What do you want? endless mid fi displays of $500 speakerrs and electronics? it is a showplace for the best and innovations.. so no problem by me.
And if you do not like it.. do not go.
It is not 'normal' when dac racks cost the same as a house; only for the few really rich.
This was not the case historically.
"It is not 'normal' when dac racks cost the same as a house; only for the few really rich."
Absolutely agree!
These are Veblen goods, not components of a music playback system. They are being marketed to people who have more money than brains who are interested in the ego satisfaction associated with conspicuous consumption.
If one wants to dump this kind of money into a expensive automobile, one will at least get a product that will attract fancy women, something that audio equipment has not been known for since the 1950's and 1960's.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Hehehe, Tony -- +1 ;-)
Vbr,
Sam
Much money is being spent on CNC machining of boxes from a single billet, ot billets. Only aircraft wing spars are made like this to preserve structural strength.
The Mytek Stereo 192-DSD DAC has functional black sheet metal. Its appearance is well matched to my Focal monitors with their exposed composite and beryllium drivers.
My aircraft wing spars were made from carbon fiber rovings around a foam core. Quite strong on air loads, but one did not survive a collision at 50 MPH with the upper part of a large pine tree, which was at a 90 degree angle to the intended design load. Fortunately the fuselage missed the trunk by about a foot, otherwise I would have been toast.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Tony, I'm suprised about your comment about the women:
"If one wants to dump this kind of money into a expensive automobile, one will at least get a product that will attract fancy women, something that audio equipment has not been known for since the 1950's and 1960's".
All you have to do is look at any of Waxxy's pictures, and you will see the truth.
"The Blues isn't about feeling better. It's about making other people feel worse and making a few bucks while you're at it" "Bleeding Gums" Murphy
So what. I can never afford an expensive car, nor would ever bother with a watch better than a Timex. Does not make the people 'bad' who do.
IMO the complaint that expensive stuff exists is total crap/sour grapes.
have far too many airplanes, boats and football clubs to spend time listening to mere 1 million dollar systems
.
I agree. Complaining about expensive (or hideously expensive) equipment is in the same league as saying cables do not make a difference.
What rankles me is the dollar amount at which an item is labeled “reasonably priced” or “reasonable.” Over time this amount is getting higher and higher (not consistent with inflation either).
I was recently reading (I don't remember what magazine) where a $1500 cable was “reasonably priced” or “reasonable.” Though I don't recall where, I have seen other items such as a $5000 amp described the same way.
For me and my situation these are not reasonable prices. I realize that others may differ.
works off of the assumption that the 'absolute sound' is only available for nearly (or maybe more) a million dollars.
"It's all fun and games until someone doesn't pick up on the sarcasm"
"works off of the assumption that the 'absolute sound' is only available for nearly (or maybe more) a million dollars."
This assumption is a huge joke. The absolute sound is available today for under $10,000, given suitable recordings. It is unavailable at any price with the majority of recordings.
IMO, if one is a music lover with a spare million one would do better to donate it to a symphony orchestra or otherwise sponsor the arts. One would be doing something socially useful, so there would be some rational basis for the momentary ego satisfaction. Also, one would be likely to gain much more social status and in a socially more elevated stratum that that frequented by most audiophiles.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Tony, I agree wholeheartedly with you. I proposed this amount to be somewhat consistent, percentage-wise, for individual components to be 'reasonably priced' in a million dollar system versus the system you propose and I could own. At 59, I remember clearly 'reasonably priced' systems I could live with for decades. Audio wasn't always elitist.
"It's all fun and games until someone doesn't pick up on the sarcasm"
Perhaps you misunderstood my post. It has nothing to do with going or not going. I have been to CES, and this year I did not go, so reports are all that I have to go on, and what the mainstream press latches on to.
There is a world way beyond supposed Mid Fi. Most gear in the $2000-$5000 range destroys SOTA equipment from 25 or 30 years ago.
And innovation? What innovation? $9500 USB cables? Liquid filled interconnects? More and more Class D amps from Europe? $12,000 streamers that sound a tiny bit better than a $250 Squeezebox?
Here is your innovation. A $50,000 rack. Have fun.
The market for these super high-end products must be very small and those who work in that field must know their market very well. Boulder started making its massive power amplifiers, not because there was a sonic need for a bigger, better amp, but because wealthy Chinese who already owned Boulder's biggest and best demanded more or would start shopping around.
A $50,000 rack is not new. Before Magico, Living Voice made a few costing something close to that amount so that a rich yacht owner with Kondo amplification could listen to his Kuzma turntable while at sea. Money no object. Kevin Scott built a few before that market tapped out.
Alon Wolf makes products that means he rubs shoulders with multi-millionaires who have already expressed an interest in his products. What's the betting this $50,000 rack came out of some more-money-than-he-knows-what-to-do-with oligarch asking Alon Wolf whether he could make a rack that matches the Q7.
Why should this trouble real people? I cannot afford a Vertu phone. I find them gaudy and pointless and expensive for the sake of being expensive, but at no time do I then say "...and therefore I will never use my iPhone!" I agree that the obsession the press has with Oil Money products is counter-productive, but those of us who own reasonably priced equipment aren't replacing it and there aren't many new people buying cheap stuff, so they go where the action is.
I don't know if this is sustainable, but I don't know if taking an alternate route at this time is any more sustainable. Certainly a magazine that is directed at what people aren't buying is going to have less revenue than one pointed at what people buy. If we aren't regular buyers, we are investors in audio, and therefor commercially worthless.
Good post. Nice points. I agree with most of it.
As far as Magico and their rack.
Here is the thing I am trying to figure out. It seems pretty obvious this rack is made from scraps left over from the Q series speakers.
So why do they cost more than the first 4 speaker models in the line? I just don't know how a rack could cost more than a Q3 that is stuffed with nanotec drivers, giant Mundorf capacitors, and that expensive, elaborate aluminum frame.
I think it is a publicity stunt...and I hate publicity stunts.
I'm not disagreeing with you...and I don't think I could control my sarcasm if I saw that.
Edits: 01/14/13
The dollar isn't what it used to be.
:-)
The Future Ain't What It Used To Be.
Why is it that only about half the inmates here can see what's going on? Doesn't it appear gross and creepy to them, as it does to us?
TJE
I am sure even some of the writers are disgusted. But they are in no position to take a stand. These are there clients, future clients, and review sample providers.
I hark back to Stephen Mejias piece last year about CES. He took a lot of flack for it, but looking forward he was spot on. By virtue of his beat, he may be the only voice of reason..aside from Art Dudley's recent public conversion.
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