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In Reply to: I'm not trying to be an antagonist here, posted by Bruce Kendall on March 7, 2007 at 11:58:11:
Readers should play NO ROLE (geez) that wasn't the point. The point is that the publishers answer to this issue concludes with what a nice industry it is and how the mags are friends with the mfgs. And it's in THAT circle that the reader is left out. Who gives a damn--(what reader interested in getting the best equipment for the money--readers not interested in that can stop here)-- about friendships between reviewers and the people that make the stuff they review? You say you aren't trying to be an antagonist. I say that's exactly what it looks like to me. If you are a reader who is part of the CLUB, which some are here, which you may be, I don't know. Or if you are a reader who has lots of money to spend, then hey, it doesn't apply. But I would much prefer a mag where the writers were not chums with the makers, where the writers took the readers' needs into account. Or where the writers were not at the mercy of the mfgs for expensive equipment to review. Honesty factors into this somewhere. That there should be something equivalent to fiduciary responsibility of mags to paying readers is what I want. I don't see that in so many of the discussions here. It makes me sick.
Follow Ups:
at least for the consumer. we will find out quickly who really loves the hobby 'as a consumer or hobbyist does', or who is using an accomodating situation to fuel an appetite for luxury items. the shake-out will indeed happen naturally, if 'real' rules are in place. one 'code' fits all. it will be a revelation how many mega priced components will suddenly 'not' be touted as the greatest. the hobby and the industry will both be better for it. friends will remain friends, but as in the world outside of audio circles, those whose friendships are based on monkey business, will fade. no individual writer should disclose anything provided magazines state that their contributers are not allowed to receive accomodation from manufacterers period. otherwise its a shell game.
Accomodation and loans are completely OK in the audio business.
The reasons are several:
First, manufacturers have to make something to sell at about 50% of the selling price or less. This must include: actual manufacturing costs, overhead, profit (if any) and advertising costs, as well as anything else that I might have overlooked.
IF a reviewer pays, let's say 50% of the retail cost of the unit, it hurts no one, because the only person who has been left out is the retail dealer, and perhaps a marketing firm who might get a percentage of each sale. The retail dealer still stands to gain by the additional exposure that this unit will be given by the audio reviewer, but that should be enough, because the retailer has not had to stock or demonstrate the item to the perspective buyer (the reviewer in this case)
The best audio equipment is costly, and will always remain costly, because of the cost of designing and building an exceptional audio product, and the way the unit has to be packaged in order to sell to discriminating audiopiles. They just won't take a tin box, drilled out in some garage, even if it does sound great, and this at least, doubles the cost of the unit.
In any case, accomodation is a tried and true way of dealing within the audio community, and it works.
What hurts is the demand for gifts or refusal to return (loaned) audio items submitted for review. That takes directly from the manufacturer, and often obligates the reviewer too. Also, small manufacturers can't keep up, if larger manufacturers can use gifts to promote their product and it will ultimately raise the cost of production, whereas accomodation does not do this, and large and small manufacturers can do this without loss to their income.
the problem with accomodation is...not everyone states that the accomodation price is 50% off list...or if there was a loan to pay that....if a writer for the detroit free press (who does consumer car reviews) flys to alabama to test drive and write about a new bmw, he or she doesn't do it on the car company's nickle. if the newspaper doesn't send them, they don't go......if there is no accomodation, speaker company A(a big company) and speaker company B(a smaller company),know the rules, and most will live by them. its not foolproof, and there will always be cheaters, but a code is a good thing for the industry and the hobby.
at least for the consumer. we will find out quickly who really loves the hobby 'as a consumer or hobbyist does', or who is using an accomodating situation to fuel an appitite for luxury items. the shake-out will indeed happen naturally, if 'real' rules are in place. one 'code' fits all. it will be a revelation how many mega priced components will suddenly 'not' be touted as the greatest. the hobby and the industry will both be better for it. friends will remain friends, but as in the world outside of audio circles, those whose friendships are based on monkey business, will fade. no individual writer should disclose anything provided magazines state that their contributers are not allowed to receive accomodation from manufacterers period. otherwise its a shell game.
First of all, the magazines make every effort to answer the needs of their readers, otherwise they'd cease to exist. Next, the high-end audio community is small enough that you can't help but get to know a number of manufacturers, reviewers or dealers if you spend any time at all in the industry. Sometimes friendships result. Nothing cynical or conspiracy-related about it.
There is no "club" that I know of, but then again, maybe I am not cool enough to know about the club if there is one. If by "club" you mean "free gear for everyone holding membership, and nothing but good reviews for all", you are truly missing the boat. The closest thing I have ever seen to a club is when a bunch of audiophiles, dealers, manufacturers and members of the audio press got together for beer and pizza for a couple of hours. After the beer and pizza were gone, the club disbanded.You see some pretty open and honest exchanges between members of the audio press and manufacturers on this board. One well-known manufacturer has been highly vocal lately. That alone should convince you that there is no vast conspiracy. Despite that, some people persist in the belief that there is. I don't know what to tell you. Perhaps if you had an opportunity to get to know some of these people a little bit you'd have a different opinion.
If you find it all sickening, why do you come over the CC and engage in conversation? Zantac yummies are pretty expensive.
Im just an old fashioned hobbiest who doesn't have any illusions about "getting to know" industry people. The web is great at fostering such illusions. I come here for the hobby. I am still sickened by a lot of the crap I read, the tap-dancing, etc (not necessarily in your particular post). If you actually think that the tas publishers initial post regarding this matter is believable, adequate, and makes sense....I have trouble understanding your assessment. I guess D means you're a dealer and so are in a MUCH different ballpark that me.
essentially irrelevant. JV has apparently satisfied those who must be satisfied. There are some side effects of this situation that will no doubt linger.The only way my "ballpark" differs from your is that I have to deal with customers. I have to qualify products that I think are good performers and a good fit for my customer base. It's not that much different than someone auditioning and selecting products for themselves, there is just more of it.
You might wonder what kind of reviews I rely on to help me in this regard, and the answer is none. I read the mags and e-zines for the same reason many others do, interest as a hobbyist and entertainment.
With respect to different ballpark. What I had in mind was, in response to your suggestion that if I got to know industry people it might help my outlook, that you, as a dealer, would have contact with these people as a matter of course. JV has perhaps satisfied those who must be satisfied at the mag, sure. And the fallout from the flap may be nothing at all for the AS. If I don't renew my subscription it won't be for this reason, but rather if I get weary enough of the same old same old positive reviews of everything. And I think being a dealer might be fun (Im sure it's often difficult), but one thing that you have to look at as a dealer is making a profit (which you should) and that's something I don't have to worry about. U can go strictly for 'bang for the buck' if I want, and if that turns out to be someone like Audio Alchemy in days of old who had great products but (from what I read in those mags) didn't have a good profit structure, so be it. And if I don't mind buying used on Audiogon, there's another difference in perspective. And if I can buy online at a discount from legitimate dealers (Audio Advisor, for example), I'll do it. However, if my ship ever comes in (and in Arizona that's unlikey), and I want to buy a pair of Quad electrostatics or bottom of the line Sound Labs or whatever strikes my fancy that way, I will seek out a brick and mortar dealer and if I can find one within some radius, will travel there to listen and get whatever advantages dealers (still) offer. Given your posts on this thread, if you had what I wanted and were close enough, I'd look you up. (But I would try to avoid discussing hifi mags and their ethics with you!). Thanks for the interesting responses.
I appreciate your comments.
(nt)
Say it with sarcasm if you will, but if consumer reports type policies were followed by an audio only mag (like stereophile) the audio world would be a better place. Buy the equipment anonymously, or at least BUY the equipment. Review it without sending preprints to mfgs. Directly compare units and make actual recommendations where not everything was recommended. Call crap crap when you see it. Don't allow reviewers to buy equipment they review at this special accomodation price. What would be so wrong with that?????????? IF you are a reader and NOT a publisher. IF you do not have as your primary interest making money for the mag (and from what it seems) the industry????? The audio products consumer reports reviews are of no interest to hobbiests. But their policies should be. You tell me what's wrong with that kind of neutrality. You tell me what's wrong with that kind of 'no ax to grind'. You tell me what's wrong with trying to avoid conflicts of interest instead of brushing aside every single one of these.
...maybe you should start an audio magazine like you describe. The question is - would anyone want to read it.If there is a big market for a publication like that, someone would have already done it.
First of all, no reviewer wants to spend their time reviewiing bad sounding equipment.
I don't really think audiophiles want to read reviews of bad sounding equipment anyway, as much as they protest.
Every review is critical of the equipment, some more than others, since nothing is perfect.
Audio reviews are merely entertaining guides to help you chose equipment to audition. Unless you have exactly the same listening biases and priorities I do, my review won't help you purchase equipment you'll like.
Most audio equipment reviewers do it part-time as a hobby and get paid a couple of hundred dollars for investing many hours over a few months to do a thorough review.
Without the ability to purchase at accomodation prices - like everyone else in the industry - few would be willing to do it.
The vast majority of reviewers I know go out of their way to be thorough, impartial and protect their reputations.
The problems occur when people act unethically. That can happen no matter what kind of structure or safeguards you put in place.
I would like to read an honest magazine with no strings attached that I could trust. This is not youthful idealism...Im way to old for that. When every review is positive and half of them are raves, not only does it get aggravating and boring (at the same time) it means that the mags and the reviews ARE OF LITTLE HELP in doing what presumably they are supposed to do, namely help audiophiles make good choices in equipment. That reviewers do it part time is NOT a good thing. I see that you are a reviewer (somewhere) and so your point of view will naturally be different. Somewhere in a fairly recent PFO Clark Johnsen has a very biting but good description of the reviewing process. Im not saying he would say it applies here. All I am saying is I read it and it made sense to me. It would not, I think, be anything you would like to hear. You say audiophiles dont want to read about bad equipment. Maybe not. But some of them (me, if nobody else) would like to read reviews that were straightforward, that didn't hedge every damn word, that didn't 'justify' in some sense the price of every piece of equipment. That didn't pander to the mfg. I see this kind of thing pretty much only in the measurements section of the Stereophile reviews where JA tells it like it is even though he grouses and puzzles as to why his measurements dont (sometimes, often ) correlate with what his reviewer says. You can dismiss measurements as meaningless, but some of the measurements Ive seen of very expensive (non-tube, just to keep that monkey at bay) are disgusting. If I were a mfg of some of that stuff, I would be embarrassed, I would not want to see it in print. And yet, there it is. That's refreshing. Most of the rest is not.
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