 
|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
|
|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
69.195.219.94
In Reply to: Make a claim - provide the evidence... posted by mkuller on April 23, 2006 at 15:06:34:
Since you are not any kind of an authority on audio DBTs, I see no reason to accept your contentions. Since you go against the accepted science, it is up to you to show it is wrong.If you want to see how unreliable sighted evaluations are, just go check the reviews of interconnects and cables over at AA--all sorts of contradictory comments.
There is a discussion in the link below of blind and sighted listening.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Follow Ups:
(nt)
I don't tell the mathematicians about higher mathematics.I don't tell the physicists about physics.
I don't tell the atrononomers about astronomy.
I don't tell the cosmologists about cosmology.
I don't tell the chemists about chemistry.
I don't tell the biologists about evolution.
Neither do I tell the experts in psychoacoustics about psychoacoustics. You apparently would like to.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
...you make a claim - you provide the evidence - your rule.If your DBTs are SO reliable, why do virtually NO audio hobbysts use them?
Because they are reliable only in producing NULL results.
They are NOT reliable for anything else to the audio hobbyist.
You got no comparative data or evidence of reliability - you got no credibility.
I know experts in psychoacoustics...and you sir are no expert.
Please don't make claims here you can't support - especially since it's your rule...
why do virtually NO audio hobbysts use them?Because if they did, they probably would cringe at the huge cash outlay that they foolishly just made. But hey, those new 600 $ per meter cables do look kind of cool.
I know some audio hobbyists DO use them.I have never pretended to be an expert on DBTs. We do have some here, however, and it is strange that you don't listen to them. I have been able to show how silly the arguments brought up here against them are with some relatively simple logic.
You are going against the established scientific principles, so it's up to you to provide the evidence that DBTs are unreliable or that sighted tests are reliable for small differences, or that this undefined thing you call observational listening is particularly reliable.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
...according to you, that's all you need to believe anything - expert testomonial.Evidence of truth - who needs it when you have unnamed experts. LOL!
If you actually do know any psychacoustic experts, ask them for the results of comparative listening tests - of audio components using music - blind vs sighted - reliability of results.
If they are experts, they will be happy to provide you the data (unless your expert is an a**hole and tells you to go to the library and find it yourself).
Evidence of truth certainly isn't constraining you.
You admit you're no expert - we just don't believe you.
YOU made the claim - now put up the evidence or shut up.
Or never ask anyone here to back up a claim again...
The primary relevant expert opinion here is that human perception is highly biased, not only for determining the audibility of small differences (we often overdetect), but also for judging the sound quality (sighted auditions of speakers are likely to result in different rankings than blind ones).You still have the illusion that I'm trying to tell you what to buy or how to go about it.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
You know the fable?In this case, the "elephant" is simply the reader's trust of the critic. You either trust the critic's taste, or you don't. It's that simple.
Once in a while I hear a piece of equipment on my own that I've read reviewed. If the reviewer's report on that piece of equipment matches my own perception, I trust him. If it doesn't, I don't. Not that I think he's a liar; it's just that his taste and mine are different.
Same thing with movie critics in the local paper. If I go to a movie on a critic's favorable review and I think the movie stinks, I probably stop reading that critic.
I will certainly grant you that, to my ears and in my system, some things do sound the same, including some wires (e.g. when I replaced RatShack gold with DH Labs). But others don't (e.g. when I replaced DH Labs with Goertz Triode Quartz). They sound different to me. But whether Mike Fremer can distinguish between two amplifiers in a DBT is just not something that interests me. What interests me is if I listen to a speaker he's reviewed and the words he used to describe the sound of that speaker are the same words I would use.
You are wise to use speakers as an example, because speakers really do sound different. And I look to reviewers whose taste seems to be similar to mine, such as John Atkinson, Andrew Marshall, and Doug Schneider (all of whom use performance measurements of speakers, too). The late Julian Hirsch had a somewhat different taste in speakers but he could describe what the sound was like clearly and succinctly, so he could be very helpful. I ignore reviewers such as Art Dudley whose taste in speakers seems much different from mine; also the staff at UHF, although their mag is highly entertaining.Now, with interconnects, speaker cables, accurate power amplifiers, CDPs, and such things, I would have to be convinced that the reviewers can actually hear the differences in normal use, and many times, there is no reason to believe they can. So in such cases whether their taste is the same as mine isn't an issue.
I get along just fine with ordinary interconnects and speaker cables.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
(nt)
there's no reason for anyone else to do so.Ask Dr. Toole for more details if you're that interested.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
The only thing you demonstrate is what a perfect idiot you are!ROTFLMFAO
"The only thing you demonstrate is what a perfect idiot you are!"I'd consider that statement "angry."
That's what Mr. Kuller seems to argue. Do you agree?
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Actually, audio hobbyists do not have to be constrained by truth or evidence. It is their / our money.It is the reviewers who need such constraints.
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors:
Top of Page ]
[ Contact Us ]
[ Support/Wish List ]
[ Copyright © 2025, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]
