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In Reply to: Re: Where do I start from such a response? posted by KlausR. on November 15, 2005 at 22:03:20:
Frankly, why care about HF extension of the tape...Because it has always exceeded that of the "perfect music forever" RBCD format.
Hi-rez: Did it really increase sales?
Irrelevant to our discussion about audio quality. It is your (incorrect) assumption that is the reason behind the new formats.
how do you know that only classical music allows to hear differences?
You really had to ask? Acoustical music has significantly more dynamics, true soundstaging, and instrumental subtlety than multitracked pop.
The MP3 format works just fine for your non-demanding musical tastes.rw
Follow Ups:
because there's nothing that can be judged.Acoustical music has more dymanics? You are kidding aren't you? I think the record stands at 150 dB for amplified music. Not that I would like to be close to the speakers.
Anyway, you don't get the full dynamic range of Symphony Orchestra onto vinyl, I suggest reading
JAES 1970, p.530 : Gravereaux (CBS): The dynamic range of disc and tape records
Have you ever attened a DBT of MP3 vs CD? You would be surprised, and very much so!
Klaus
Klaus,
Ultimate loudness has nothing to do with dynamic range. NOTHING. The question of dynamic range is how LOW can your system play without losing its character. The change from low level to high level is dynamic range.However, with recorded rock music there is very little dynamic range, often not more than 10db. There are some exceptions like some Dire Straits but mostly not the case.
How well do you speakers reproduce low level sounds in the 50-60db range Klaus? You probably wouldn't know because if your average listening level is 85db then you never hear anything from your speakers below about 70db. Do they lose realism when you turn the volume way down? If so then they are poor at low level resolution.
I have some classical recordings, Klaus, that have about 40db of dynamic range. Is this as good as live? Nearly. You see the ambient noise level in a music hall is still probably in the 40db range. If the peaks are 95-100db (rare but can happen with a full orchestra) then you have a 55-60db dynamic range. So 40db is not doing too badly I would say. Most stereo systems would find that range nearly impossible to do. Sure the cd player and amps have 70-90db dynamic range but what about the speakers? Do you ever see a dynamic range spec for them?? Most stereos on the recordings I am talking about require you to turn up the volume quite high to get quiet passages to come through ok but then the high level passages are much louder than in real life (or for the comfort of the speaker). If you have to listen louder than life to get a "live" feeling then your speaker has poor dynamic range.
The simple fact is that most music doesn't use the dynamic bandwidth of cd anyway. The ambient noise level when recording eliminates 30-40db of that automatically. Rock engineers eliminate the rest with compression. I have a Red Hot Chili Peppers album that has a whole 7db dynamic range. So much for 96db of the format. If they don't use the dynamic range then what's the point of having it?? At least with classical they use more of what is available. The 50 or 60db of Lp is more than nearly any recording has anyway or that your stereo system is likely to handle properly.
I also have a recording of Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet that was recorded with a single stereo ribbon microphone directly to DAT tape. No processing. It has a dynamic range in excess of 40db and it is the closest to live sounding recording I own. It is my acid test for all systems I listen to. Most do a poor job with it because the dynamics are simply too wide. Also, the tone colors of instruments are very close to live (thanks to the ribbon microphones) and it tells me how colored a system is. BTW, I heard this same piece live recently and I can tell you the recording is close to what is heard live.
I guess that without exact knowledge of what SPL has been recorded and without using a SPL meter at home you won't know if a given speaker is capable of reproducing the recorded dynamic range correctly.However, I wonder if a manufacturer like K+H, being in business for more than 50 years, can afford launching a first of its kind, aiming at audio professionals, that has a major weakness such as limited dynamic range. FYI, amps and digital controller have dynamic range of more than 115 dB, and the pro-audio review did not find any weakness in that respect, FWIW of course. Give it a listen, then you know.
Klaus
"FYI, amps and digital controller have dynamic range of more than 115 dB". So what? The speakers themselves don't have that kind of dynamic range. Look its real simple almost no speakers on the planet are capable of accurately reproducing 30db or 40db level signals. Even if they could the ambient noise level in your home is in this range. There goes 30-40db right off the bat. Now what is the highest sustained listening level that won't cause hearing damage? Low 90db range at best. For peaks let's say 100db is tolerable (but not realistic for live music). So now the REAL dynamic range is at best 70db and more realistically around 50db. That's the best Klaus regardless of what the dynamic range and SN ratio of the amps are. Now most speakers start to lose it really around 60db and start thermal compression at not much over 90db. However, they start to sound strained long before 100db even. So in reality the range for realistic representation of music is maybe 30db. This is already a good speaker system believe it or not.I can tell you that realistic levels inside a music hall with an orchestra if you are sitting middle hall probably doesn't exceed 90db and is easily down to the low 50s during quiet passages. If you are close maybe 95db (this is already very loud and would only be present during a large crescendo most of the time the average level is likely in the 60-80 db range). I have an SPL meter and I use it Klaus. Also, my ears tell me if the level is realistic or not (as I have the experience to tell).
Do you see how this 115db number is simply fluff for advertising? Do you see how impossible this number is with regard to real world reproduction? Do you see how there is probably not a single speaker on the planet that can reproduce a 10db sound level and even if it could it would likely be masked by the environment?
Think of the extreme case of masking, Klaus, in your car when driving. What is the ambient noise level in the car? Typically around 75dbA. Now I know that you have had this experience of driving with the stereo blasting and the level seems just fine...until you slow to a stop. Now you realize the level is way too high and you turn down the volume, right? The same is true in the home environment just the threshold is lower. its around 40db instead of 75db. However, most speakers are unable to do a credible job at 40db (some sound will come out but it will sound very unlike a real sound at that level). Enter compression, engineers of the music you prefer boost the low level and squash the peaks to make the whole thing fit in a range that virtually ANY system can handle (like a car radio or boombox). The same limited dynamic range is present regardless of the sytem because its in the recording. This is why this music is undemanding of a systems dynamic capabilities. Get it?
Very funny!Alas, Klaus won't get it. He might crap his pants if he ever found out his 115dB "dynamic range" system couldn't do justice to a single trumpet at close range.
Oh well!
is the difference between the softest to the loudest passages. PA amplified rock concerts demonstrate precious little despite their high virtually constant ear damaging levels.Have you ever attened a DBT of MP3 vs CD?
All I can do is shake my head and smile. You proved my point!
rw
that doesn't change the results of that test. You too have proved a point.
Klaus
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