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64.142.27.2
In Reply to: I disagree posted by John Marks on September 21, 2005 at 07:03:07:
You took a single phrase, "megabuck gear", and made that the thrust of all I had to say. In fact it wasn't my main point at all. My point was that hobbyiest roots of building and modding gear are pretty much non-existent in your magazine. I even stated there may be good reasons for Stereophile's not covering the hobbyist/DIY end of audio, and yes I was hoping for some further explanation about that.Yes, I see my mistake now in using the phrase "megabuck gear". It implies luxury and non-affordablity. You've nailed me on that with 5 paragraphs of rebuttal. I concede the point.
What's also awkward for me is the personal tone you set with your final comment, which begins "Your problem is...". Why is it necessary to make ad hominem remarks?
It's getting very difficult in this forum to have a friendly interchange of ideas and opinions. So I give up. You win. Good bye and good luck.
Follow Ups:
The issue with DIY is not in the inherent worth of building something with your own hands. It has more to do these days with available time, interest, expense, and personal intrinsic value of the DIY process/experience itself.Many of us old timers built kits from Dynaco, Hafler, even Heathkit. There will be many who built the Heatkit Color TV which is quite a project just given the time and perseverance. Many came back into the store I worked at to get up in running from a minor component wiring error. You could even buy speaker kits from Heathkit from JBL and Altec and just about any piece of audio gear you wanted including a kit Advent 201 cassette recorder/player. The HeathKit operation in Michigan was quite a remarkable thing.
With expensive American manufacturing pretty much gone from the audio front, cheaply robot assembled, high quality hifi gear is everywhere making any possible DIY savings non existent. I am not sure that a DIY $39 DVD player would have much of a market or a DIY Ayre 5 Cd player. Most people will not even take time to PLAY vinyl anymore, opting for time spent downloading MP3's for their portable player.
The DIY part of this business has always been about the "Norm Abram" side of us. There is value in building "your own", but it is a personal thing and the market is all but vanished. I am afraid the lack of time has also become our enemy. Gone as well a walk in the park, a ride in New England in the fall with the promise of a cup of hot cider, quiet time with a good book. Now it is parents sending kids to computer or soccer camp or the next big game which has its own value to the participants, or just being dropped at the Mall to cruise. The times have changed. So have society's audio interests.
John Atkinson's AA posts about DIY are also pretty good. He says DIYers are just not a big enough community. Not big enough to justify column space in Stereophile. He even recommends the smaller publications that cover DIY well, like Glass Audio, Vacuum Tube Valley, Audio Xpress and a few others.Somehow DIYers just don't get the respect they deserve. Hobbyist DIYers jump-start high-end audio. High end audio enjoys commercial success. Commercial success pushes out the hobbyist DIYers. If ya can't make a buck from 'em, who needs 'em?
Thanks for your post; was good reading!
"High end audio enjoys commercial success."As has been said many times, the best way to make a small fortune in high-end audio is to start with a large fortune. There are few businesses that are more difficult to make profitable than high-end audio. The failure rate is astronomical. In most cases, one would be better off putting there money in a passbook savings account. Most do it for the love of the hobby and not to make a financial killing. There are simply easier ways to make money.
OK, on topic, DIY is a very, very small niche and is not now nor will it ever be a significant part of a market that, in the scheme of things, is
not much more than a niche market itself.
I knew you'd come clean. If it ain't about money, then it doesn't deserve consideration. Your view, eh? Stereophile's view too?Funny how that guy Holt persevered for two decades in putting out Stereophile on a next to nothing budget. Somebody forgot to tell him that money was king.
And this very forum; you think it's about money? And the DIYers who started this hobby, was it about money for them?
Admit it. Money and market economics are only a major slice of audio. The rest of audio is built on good will, sharing information, love of the hobby, and various other nebulous things.
You an economist?
Of course, it's always about money. Some one has to pay for writing, editing and publishing. Stereophile didn't exactly thrive in those first twenty years....it barely survived. TAS was in even worse shape. The model will not work today for a print magazine. The costs are simply too high. It may be possible with an emagazine where the costs are much lower and people may be willing to do it as a hobby but not as a going business concern. The WEB is the tool for those who want a focus
on DIY. Don't expect it from an established magazine that is expected to be profitable.
If high-end audio products are available decade after decade, that tells me that manufactures and dealers are doing well enough. Which is to say high-end audio IS commercially viable. I never made the argument that high-end audio was lucrative or a good investment, but you replied to my post as if I had.Seems like we've strayed off topic.
I posted to solicit opinions about the DIY/hobbyist community and its role in high-end audio. Talk about that!
I read the same thing you did and did not perceive anything that resembles "ad hominem remarks".Given the sharp tone exhibited in CC towards certain Stereophile staff, I am personally surprised we don't see more evidence of sandbags and flack jackets than we do.
Just a thought.
No kidding. Fell off my bike last night in a road construction area. Need to have my hand xrayed.As for ad hominem content, Webster's online dictionary defines 'ad hominem' as follows:
Etymology: New Latin, literally, to the person
1 : appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect
2 : marked by an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions madeWhen Mr. Mark's says "your problem is ...", it implies unambigiously that I have a problem. The issue has become me, rather than "an answer to the contentions made".
I do not believe Mr. Marks intended to make a personal remark, it just slipped. About like my "megabuck gear" comment. Both comments were inapproprate. I've made my amends. No big deal. Please forget about it.
and just needs a day or two to get right. That reminds me, I need to get my bike out a little more often. I have had zero falls this year and that is out of character for me.Seriously, I hope things are fine.
Asphalt had been scraped away 1.5 inches down. Right next to original level of asphalt. Mid-lane. At night I just didn't see the line. Flew off the bike, broke the fall completely with my hands. First time I've fallen of my bike in many years.If I seem picky or crabby ....
I'll be seeking solace in a six pack. Red Hook, Widmer Hefeweizen, and Fuller's London Pride are my current favorites.
And JM is one of the good guys. I read his "your problem" as being more of a figure of speech than as a personal shot.Night riding always gives me the creeps.
I fell perfectly. Nice to know I occasionally do something right, even if it's falling down.About JM, I know he is one of the good guys. And squabbling is horrible. So I'd rather forget it.
Thanks to all for the well-wishing; it helps. Bass pale ale is helping too. 3 lovely bottles and I forgive and forget the aggravations of the day.
I could have as easily said, "It is an issue of..." and in the future I will attempt to remember to use that formulation.I am glad you are OK.
Late response due to circumstances beyond my control, but not involving health professionals.
Sincerely,
JM
.
You landed more gracefully than I. My clavicle and three ribs were fractured a few weeks ago in a bicycle fall.Some bass pale ale sounds pretty good right about now.
Besides the PAIN, you lose time off work? The worst is being stuck at home when it hurts just to move. Horrible! Cold beer gives me a nice euphoric mood altering mind-set. Now I understand the Aussie phrase, "No worries!" It means they're plastered. Good beer really does help. God speed your recovery.
Thanks for the update -- have another beer to ease the pain!
as I'd give you one of my "Jack Daniels" beers. ;~)
would come out to play.
...need more skeet targets?
In terms of targets, TAS has been giving people plenty to shoot at. It's just no fun if the target never shoots back. In the last few issues RH has been pushing (albeit somewhat awkwardly) to open some issues for debate. The problem being that it appears the debate can only take place in the space alloted for letters. That, as you know, makes for a very lopsided conversation and not much of a debate.His approach would be much more interesting if he would venture into this forum. Stereophile takes most of the heat in CC only because the staff actually spends time in here interacting with some of their targeted readership.
Here is one minor example: Of all of the "tools in the shed" that were readily available for a review of the "digital" turntable (my abbreviated name for it), how did that task fall upon JV? Even if JV were completely wowed by that product, he would have been between a rock and a hard spot to actually say so. Like I said, that is a minor one. There are plenty of other issues that would be worthwhile to discuss, IMHO.
As for the issues that RH is trying to promote a debate on? I pretty much agree with him on everything, except his penchant for doing away with the CD and adopting some (in his opinion, apparently any) new hi-rez disc. Sometimes, the yearning to re-live the old transition from vinyl to CD and accompanying increase in merchandise and magazine sales is a little too obvious.
Why not e-mail RH directly? I'm out of the loop when it comes to editorial matters at TAS, including the reasoning behind review assignments.Sue
Wanna bet lunch at the place of your choosing (in Vegas) that I don't get an answer?
> > Wanna bet lunch at the place of your choosing (in Vegas) that I don't get an answer? < <You're on! RH is usually pretty good about answering all his e-mail--not only from us, but from TAS readers as well. Lucky for you, I'm a burger 'n fries kind of gal ;-)
Sue
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