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Roger Snorrington gets these revelations every now and then that the "age of vibrato" began later and later compared to what other musicians assume. His most ridiculous claim is that the strings of the Vienna Philharmonic didn't start playing with vibrato until 1940. (Hmm. . . maybe the Nazis started making them play with vibrato!)
David Hurwitz made the valid point that there were a number of conductors who lived through the 20's, 30's and 40's (when all this supposedly non-vibrato string playing was going on), such as Walter, Klemperer, Reiner, et al. These conductors lived well into the 60's or even the 70's, and there is not a single known case, either in interviews or in written articles, where even one of these conductors says something like, "Whoa! Things sure changed a lot in the 40's - I can remember in my youth when orchestras played with no vibrato at all. Such a difference with all the vibrato which strings use today!" ;-)
But I was not aware of a 2014 visual analysis of the old FILMS of the VPO which showed, to the contrary, they DID play with vibrato - and well before 1940. Check out the analysis at the link at the bottom of this post. I was directed to this article by an MWI review of Snorrington's hapless recordings of some Bruckner Symphonies where vibrato was verboten! Here's the link to the MWI review:MWI Snorrington/Bruckner Review
Follow Ups:
Former Fanfare editor and music scholar Lynn Rene Bayley published an article a while back, revealing how Snorrington actually reached his no- vibrato conclusions.
I should point out that professionals such as LRB have access to, and operate on, levels not available to most.
Snorrington started out by claming in print that he had conducted "research", which revealed that almost nobody used vibrato until some vague point in the 20th century. He wasn't specific about what led to that momentous change; how or where it began, or why.
But, he did claim that the VPO played without vibrato until around 1940.
It so happens that I happen to know a little bit about historic research. If you're claiming that you've conducted research, and you're putting forth [outrageous] conclusions based on it, then you have to have had it published in a peer reviewed journal. You have to show your evidence; your field notes, and all of your proof to back up your claims.
You don't just get to say "my magic potion will make you Superman, and filthy rich". You have to provide evidence.
Snorrington published nothing at all, except his unsupported claims.
LRB found out what Snorrington actually did. It turns out that Snorrinton listened to a few 78's of the VPO, and on that basis came to his outrageous claims. That's it.
That's all. Nothing else. A number of people got hold of VPO 78's, as well as many other orchestra 78's. LRB listened intently. She heard nothing like what Snorrington was claiming.
So, not only was Snorrington committing fraud, but his claims are something that any one who can get a hold of old recordings can decide for themselves.
But one shouldn't dismiss *all* HIP performers of all pre-20thC music and all the research --pro-vibrato, con, contradictory, and unclear-- because of a few charlatans. That's just lazy.
The only thing I would say in Snorrington's possible defense is that it's sometimes hard to tell if vibrato is being used in an orchestral string section with all the vagaries of 78 rpm reproduction. Of course, that's all the more reason to be careful with your "revelatory" vibrato claims! ;-)
"..hard to tell if vibrato is being used in an orchestral string section with all the vagaries of 78 rpm reproduction.."
i"m betting that was his strategy all along.
As I've posted before, 78's sometimes make pianos sound as if they have vibrato! ;-)
to the point I think a non-verbal resolution is appropriate.
Seems like both our precious time left on the planet could be better spent at this point.
. . . I prefer the term, "strangulated vibrato" for the sound which those types of players produce. ;-)
and tired than a public radio playlist lately.
Talk about predictability! ;-)
If you want to get into how many wobbles per second add up to "good taste," have at it. : )All of us getting together and compiling a list of every historical mention of vibrato we can find...? Now *that* would wake me up and even possibly attract those who have since dropped off this forum.
Otherwise, Norrington is like the Tucker Carlson of the HIP movement. Going after him on almost a monthly basis seems just a little too easy.
Edits: 09/21/21
. . . please don't expect me to do it. You say you have SO MANY examples - in that case, they ought to be easy for you to find, right? What's more likely true is that you have a lot of ASSERTIONS that HIP players have been as free with vibrato as modern players are - which is absurd. Maybe you're confusing assertion vs. audible reality? One of your posts I DO remember had to do with your claim that there was no vibrato in Bruno Walter's stereo recording of Mozart's Symphony No. 39 - a claim I think you were disabused of, not only by me, but also by our friend, pbarach.
Regarding your second paragraph, people are always free to drop out or return to this forum anytime they want. Are you suggesting something like, "Oh dear! We'd better not post this - otherwise so-and-so might drop out of the forum because he might not like what we've posted!"? Believe me, I've suggested to Rod that we open a "Safe Space" forum for exactly these types of situations, but he hasn't gone for my suggestion yet. ;-)
BTW, I think The Tuck has some good things to say sometimes, so your comment may not be the insult you think it is. In any case, they just reissued the set of Snorrington's Bruckner Symphonies (per yesterday's MWI review), so it's not as if my post lacked topical relevance. ;-)
Also my cue to repeat my objective for a third and final time, which is to make sure that the casual reader doesn't walk away believing that HIP performers use no vibrato whatsoever. Whatever you think of their style and taste is not my concern.
View YouTube Video
I've pointed out many times the inconsistency between the amount vibrato allowed in HIP performances between singers (who are allowed full use of their natural vibrato) and instrumentalists (whose vibrato is artificially constrained). I will acknowledge that the amount of vibrato in the violin solo here is not as strangulated as on some other HIP performances, but it's still easily identified as a HIP performance (with artificial vibrato constraints) even so.
believing that HIPsters never use vibrato, or that their approach to vibrato is dictated from "central command." Your issues with style and taste are not my concern here.
. . . produced as if the fingers on the fingerboard are locked in a vice. And, yes, they do this with the full support of "central command" (i.e., the academicians entrenched in our universities) so that they can differentiate their corporate sound as a marketing tool.
As for style and taste, you yourself posted some quotes above (in a later thread) wherein the authors say that the use of vibrato depends VERY MUCH on style and taste. Of course, when one doesn't have taste, I suppose anything goes.
.
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View YouTube Video
. . . not as strangulated as some, but hardly free of audible vibrato constraints.
/
View YouTube Video
,
Edits: 09/22/21
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View YouTube Video
. . . easily identifiable as a HIP performance. Remember: Geminiani wrote that vibrato is "indispensable" in string playing and should be used "as often as possible". Do you think that this performance is consistent with Geminiani's statements? I don't.
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View YouTube Video
. . . do you not hear the difference?
But more likely the use of more strongly projecting modernized string instruments, particularly with louder steel vs gut strings.I'm no ideologue one way or another.
In this particular case, I happen to enjoy Harnoncourt, and this particular performance of the titanic StMP.
I think he was an excellent and insightful conductor whether on a larger modern tech orchestra (CoE for LVB symphonies) or the smaller Bach orchestra which balances properly with the solo voice.
I don't check the size of the vibrato, just whether it works or not.
Music has always been a *performing* art, with the performers having their say and ideas how to make the music. If it sounds good, it is good.
Edits: 09/22/21
And, yes, Harnoncourt could be a very fine conductor indeed. His recordings of the Dvorak (with the Concertgebouw Orchestra) and Bruckner Symphonies (with a variety of orchestras) are excellent, and his Schubert set with the BPO on that orchestra's own label is similarly excellent. Of course, in all of these cases, he allowed the orchestras to play with their normal, natural string vibrato.
OTOH, no one needs to "check" the size of the vibrato - it's just something that's omnipresently "there" (or not!), which you can't un-hear.
Why, O why???
I mean, that's such arrogance on Harnoncourt's part to record Porgy, especially after the snarky comments he made (in the booklet notes to the album shown below) about Americans performing Johann Strauss! Even so, I have to admit that Strauss is another composer he does pretty well! ;-)
"if it sounds bad, it *is* bad"
I knew Norrington was awful at first hearing.
"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields
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