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In Reply to: RE: The audibility of pitch correction and other DSP recording fixes posted by Analog Scott on August 31, 2021 at 08:49:43
This is a "classic" tune, but not "classical" music......
Eva Cassidy, "Time Is a Healer"..... Two samples of the same track... Except one has Auto-Tune applied to it, the other does not......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVF2JwArc8c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YUD0Yx1XLM
This is to be educational, not a "test"..... If you don't hear it, you don't hear it.....
Follow Ups:
All I have are my cheap headphones and my laptop. I will have to wait until I get back hom to give it a proper listen
I selected these tracks using the cheesy laptop audio....The one thing about Auto-Tune is that the quality of the output audio has almost no impact on its "detectability"..... (Although I do find Auto-Tune a lot more annoying when listening through a resolute audio system.)
The only thing that would obscure the differences is if the playback has a lot of intermediate processing (sample rate conversion, digital equalization, real-time "lossless" encoding/decoding, etc.)......
Edits: 08/31/21
and get backtoyou.If you get a chance check out the Yuja Wang recording and see if you detect any pitch correction
I thought they both sounded like crap and I could not identify the use of autotune on either
I told people not to post on AA disclosing which was which, and won't disclose that until a later time..... Unless you personally would want to know right now.
I know about 15 people who sampled the tracks, split about half choosing the correct tracks and half unable to notice the difference..... And only one chose the incorrect tracks.
Just out of curiosity, you stated that both tracks "sounded like crap".... What exactly did you find objectionable? (I often don't hear things that others hear, the learning experience goes both ways. The YouTube transcription of a studio recording of course lost some resolution, but I otherwise didn't notice anything objectionable, aside from the Auto-Tune on one of the tracks.) I would also be curious if you thought one track sounded better than the other..... (None of the roughly 15 individuals made any comments to me about the tracks' sound quality.)
This issue isn't whether or not an individual notices the Auto-Tune on a given track..... The issue is that some people do notice it, and this should not be discounted by recording engineers and producers.
I suspect part of the problem is my laptop/headphone combo but I have never heard anything better than crap sound from youtube.
Did you ever take a listen to the Yuja Wang Rach III Prok II recording to check for pitch control? I got the inside info from the recording engineer.
"Did you ever take a listen to the Yuja Wang Rach III Prok II recording to check for pitch control?"
I hope you're not referring to the recording with Gustavo Dudamel and the (now defunct) Simon Bolivar Youth Symphony Orchestra...... The problem isn't pitch correction (Auto-Tune).... The problem is the performances with that orchestra were "fabricated" in a lot of ways...... Namely taking "time-stretched" or "time compressed" recordings of performances of other orchestras. (The performance of the Beethoven 7 on Deutsche Grammophon CD, three of the four movements were taken from the Szell/Cleveland performance. See this AA post .)
I personally think the Simon Bolivar Youth Symphony Orchestra was the "Joyce Hatto" of symphony orchestras. (I later came to the realization that Dudamel was the real deal.... But not the youth orchestra that he once conducted.)
I would not trust any recording engineer or producer who put out anything by the Simon Bolivar Youth Symphony Orchestra..... Regardless of who conducted it or who performed with it. (I'm sure Yuja Wang has performed and recorded these concertos with other symphony orchestras, I'd rather listen to those performances.)
It is a tragedy that the orchestra (and "El Sistema") completely collapsed when leader Nicolas Maduro and his socialist party assumed absolute power in Venezuela..... (Some of the musicians may have been killed or incarcerated..... ) We can only talk about it in the "past tense."
Saying that, there is *one* genuine, un-doctored performance by the Simon Bolivar Youth Symphony Orchestra on YouTube.... A former conductor has a channel, and uploaded the video (link to final movement of Mendelssohn Four) of him conducting it..... (The name of the channel was changed. Most of the uploads are of Samuel Boruszko conducting various orchestras.) Kind of shocked that it was never taken down..... Only because it reveals how the Simon Bolivar Youth Symphony Orchestra *really* sounded like.
. . . your nut-case theory that the Dudamel Beethoven 7 is really the time-stretched Szell Beethoven 7. Interesting how no one else has ever come forward to confirm that "theory" over the last 11 years. ;-)
It was brought up only because someone suggested to me a recording with the Simon Bolivar Youth Orchestra..... An institution that I've taken with a lot of suspicion......
Just because I haven't discussed this issue in quite some time on AA does not mean my opinion on it has changed...... It hasn't.
I probably won't discuss this again on AA...... If you want to discuss it further, do it off line.
They are a pretty well documented ensemble. Maybe it was your confusion with them and the other Simon Bolivar Orchestra?
"Maybe it was your confusion with them and the other Simon Bolivar Orchestra?"
Who knows..... Maybe there were three or four....... .... ................
The original and the youth developed under 'El Systema" which eventually dropped the name "youth" as the members got older.
I'll take any opportunity to post this.
Stunning LIVE performance of Mahler 2, cutest clarinet player and, not to go all CIL, Miah Persson. It must be the best deep fake ever! That emotion and the tears at the end on EVERYONE, just a COVER UP!
Oh, and their performance on a disc called Discoveries of the Marquez Danzon No. 2 is my alarm tone every morning. I feel so used and pwned!
having seen them live exactly 10 times I have to say, that's some serious CGI they are using in concert
I've only seen Dudamel with the LA Youth Orchestra. Hey, you're right, they were from LA, everything's CGI coming out of Hollywood now. Double pwned!
Is a different Simon Bolivar Orchestra. not the one that recorded with Dudamel and Yuja Wang.
OK two other things....What do you base these opinions on? Namely that Yuja Wang Rach III Prok II recording is not the Simon Bolivar Orhcestra but other orchestras time stretched or time compressed?
Edits: 09/07/21
"Is a different Simon Bolivar Orchestra. not the one that recorded with Dudamel and Yuja Wang."
Never realized there were more than one...... And I linked the "wrong" one..... Thanks for the heads up.
These performances most certainly did happen. Are you saying this recording was faked? that those performances never happened? Do you also think that isn't Yuja Wang playing piano or Dudamel conducting?
Edits: 09/07/21
Listening to the recording..... Rachmoninoff 3....... It's actually a nice recording..... The "stereo spread" is a little vague, a little bit of "dynamic pumping" at the soft end of the dynamic spectrum (I've heard this with a lot of recordings.... A seeming artifact in the digital age...... ) The piano itself did sound a little "processed"..... There was nothing in the recording that raised any flags...... (If there is Auto-Tune in the recording, as you suggested, I didn't notice it. Since the piano is not a "pitch variant" instrument like a violin or vocal, I think I could have a hard time noticing it with piano. I didn't notice it on the orchestra either.)It does sound like Yuja performing...... It's a nice performance..... She doesn't really have the dynamic "explosiveness" that makes this concerto fly..... (I recently listened a performance of this concerto from the Cleveland International Piano Competition, with Yedam Kim, Jahja Ling, and the Cleveland Orchestra.... I personally prefer this performance..... ) Yuja played the "Horowitz" intro (an octave higher than scored) of the third movement......
I won't speculate whether or not it was actually SBYSO performing the accompaniment..... It could very well have been.... I've also heard better in that department. (Ling and Cleveland put forth a good one in the Kim performance I brought up earlier.)
As far as the Prokofiev concerto is concerned, it's not a piece that really has my interest..... I'll likely listen to that a few days later.
Edits: 09/09/21
"The piano technician, who took care of the piano for Yuja, is really fantastic. Both his work and Yuja's playing in the first place are essential for the sound, even if it didn't come across in the hall.
I didn't use any pitch correction, and there's not really a secret tool involved here. It's about carefully balancing all the natural ingredients..."
I don't know why you brought up "pitch" in the first place, in reference to this particular album...... (The fact you brought it up made me suspicious that there would have been some sort of enhancement.... But in listening, I didn't notice anything.)
I've heard better performances of the Rach Concerto Three, but it was still decent, and the recording was very nice in most part.
I did take in the first movement of the Prok Concerto Two.... Since this is a work I'm not overly familiar with, Yuja, Dudamel, and the SBYSO seem a little more impressive than with the Rach..... The recording is better too..... The stereo spread with the Prok concerto is a lot more convincing.....
I really don't have that much more to say...... If I'm in the right mood, I might listen to this CD again.
because the piano could not stay in tune
"because the piano could not stay in tune"
Interesting.....
I've never encountered a performance in which the piano had noticeably drifted out-of tune (aside from strings breaking completely)...... Most notes on a piano have multiple strings.... When a piano goes out of tune, one of a note's strings drifts "flat," creating a "vibrato" or "honky tonk" effect on the played note.... I don't know if Auto-Tune or other pitch correction software could even fix this, the note itself does not entirely go "flat."
Although I have seen stories of this problem with Bosendorfer pianos...... (I've heard the strings in a symphony orchestra drift out of tune during a performance, but not so much the piano. Although I once encountered a harp going out-of-tune during a performance.... Most times I encounter a video with a piano that's out-of-tune, it was already out-of-tune. The piano in the linked video has a note that was noticeably out-of-tune.)
I don't recall Auto-Tune being used for that purpose. Unless the piano was tuned flat or sharp relative to the orchestra's tuning. (This would only happen if soloist and orchestra were recorded in separate takes.)
"I've never encountered a performance in which the piano had noticeably drifted out-of tune (aside from strings breaking completely)...... Most notes on a piano have multiple strings.... When a piano goes out of tune, one of a note's strings drifts "flat," creating a "vibrato" or "honky tonk" effect on the played note.... I don't know if Auto-Tune or other pitch correction software could even fix this, the note itself does not entirely go "flat.""
This was a unique situation. It was Venezuela, a very hot and humid environment and the piano had never been stored in a controlled environment.It was virtually dead on arrival. The piano tech spent four days practically rebuilding it. It simply could not stay in tune for long periods of time. All Steinway Ds drift pretty quickly regardless of their age or weathering. But they generally can hold their tuning for a few hours. This one could not consistantly do so. The solution was editing. 3 live performances, a taped rehersal and a patch session gave them the material needed to avoid any parts where the piano went out of tune.
I was not sure how they would address the issue. So I thought they might resort to adjusting the pitch in spots
It seems like you had some close ties over there.... You must be distraught over what has since happened to SBYSO and El Sistema............
I knew things had gotten bad and that a lot of their members had jumped ship. But I really have not kept up on what is going on.It's hard to tell if there still is an orchestra or not at this point. but if there is it isn't the same as it was just a few years ago.
My ties or with Yuja who is a very close friend of mine.
I just hope the country of Venezuela somehow recovers from the stranglehold of the Maduro regime...... I know a few people from there, and none are happy.
I'll listen to it, only because you gave it the OK...... I won't likely be until the weekend.
I sampled the "cadenza" of two other Yuja Wang performances, including the Dudamel/LAPO performance...... She played the "standard" cadenza with the "big" cadenza ending..... Which is a common way to play it.....
I've also heard performances of the "big" cadenza with the "standard" cadenza ending (Van Cliburn)..... Albeit the least-often performed of the four versions. The "big" cadenza is the most-often played. (The "big" cadenza ending is the one "repeated" three times. Argerich performed the "standard" cadenza with the "big" ending..... Horowitz played the "standard" cadenza all the way through.)
The CD will arrive Thursday......
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