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In Reply to: RE: Now that's an ironic take! If in discussing the fact that most accomplished posted by tinear on August 29, 2021 at 08:10:55
"If in discussing the fact that most accomplished jazz players are African-American and one said it was because of their work ethic, would that make sense?"
If the African American jazz players being discussed had an outstanding work ethic then yes, it would make sense.
It is not uncommon for many African American jazz musicians to be praised for their outstanding work ethic. Miles Davis, Sonny Rollins and John Coltrane come to mind just off the top of my head.
And more to the point,none of it would be an attack on the work ethic of any non African American jazz musician.
That you would make this your argument and assert that praise for the work ethic of any African American jazz musician would somehow "not make sense" suggests you may be the one guilty of stereotypes.
Follow Ups:
projected interpretations of my comments. There is a lot of baggage and history in discussing this subject, easily the most emotional of any in this country. (I laud your lack of animosity or personal attack, btw).Speaking of an Asian's "work ethic" is, in the real world, a cliché--- an overworked and possibly racial (not necessarily racist) singling out of one of many traits that lead to success. The implication, of course, based on decades of veiled insult, is that the success isn't a result of intelligence or innate skill, but rather of sweat.
My easy-to-understand point is that one seldom reads anything of the sort about highly skilled jazz players. (NB: this doesn't mean it hasn't been said, just that it isn't COMMONLY said).
Simplified still further: noting the amazing number of highly skilled Asian classical musicians is one thing. Singling out "hard work" as the only mentioned factor is remarkable in that it repeats a traditional insult and ignores cultural and political factors. My point with Black jazz musicians dominance is simply that one NEVER reads a comment attributing it to "hard work." Again, some individuals may indeed have been said to be so, but one doesn't EVER read that African American success in this genre is due to hard work. (I hope you're not going, again, to try the argument that suggests repeating racist stereotypes is in itself racist).
As far as Chris: if you don't see how his using the term, "negre," in a lead and then laughing at those who would substitute another less incendiary one might be construed as problematic--- well, I'll say I'm surprised, not shocked. And his past posts, his many comments bringing rap/hip-hop into a discussion that was about classical Black music or musicians, coupled with his continuing wink-wink, "good natured" sexist comments all betray a certain mind set--- to me.
Edits: 08/29/21
But your original post is so full of innuendo that it's hard to take it all in. But I'll try. . .
The implication [of using the term "work ethic"], of course, based on decades of veiled insult, is that the success isn't a result of intelligence or innate skill, but rather of sweat.
Words almost fail me here: only someone like you could take a positive comment ("work ethic"), made in the context of a positive development (proportion of Asians in the forthcoming Warsaw Chopin Competition), and try to twist it into "a veiled insult". Take off your woke blinders and you might be able to understand.
My easy-to-understand point is that one seldom reads anything of the sort about highly skilled jazz players.
Yes - especially on a classical forum! Did you by any chance know that there's a jazz forum on this site too. I hear that Rick W runs a swinging (and woke!) discussion group over there! ;-)
As far as Chris: if you don't see how his using the term, "negre," in a lead and then laughing at those who would substitute another less incendiary one might be construed as problematic--- well, I'll say I'm surprised, not shocked. And his past posts, his many comments bringing rap/hip-hop into a discussion that was about classical Black music or musicians, coupled with his continuing wink-wink, "good natured" sexist comments all betray a certain mind set--- to me.
I've already discussed this in answer to the same point you made in another of your many redundant posts making the same points over and over again in this thread (as if sheer repetition is going to bolster your argument). It suffices to say (again!) that Le petit negre is the composer's own title for his own piece, no matter how much you wish he would have chosen another title. The same applies to your redundant point about my rap music comments (which, BTW, have all been very respectful - and which in any case do not even apply to your point, since white people invented rap music! - See my post about Walton and Sitwell further up on this thread.). And the reason my good natured comments offend you so much is because, having drunk at the woke trough for years, you're pre-inclined to be offended. Really, I'm not the only one who finds you to be a pest on these various forums - but I guess we'll just have to continue to live with your holier-than-thou presence here for the foreseeable future.
Asleep? Insensitive? Uncaring?
Words do not exist in a vacuum. Context matters. I'll try and wake you, sleepy head:
If one remarks on the heavy preponderance of African-American champions in track and field running events (especially, but not restricted to sprint ones) by saying, "Yes, they are so athletic--- such natural talent," that comment appears to be "innocent." Can you understand why it would offend Black people?
Asians often are used as a contrast to other groups, though you may not have been "woke" to it:
"The so-called "model minority" stereotype, one of the most pervasive and harmful assumptions about Asian Americans, holds that Asian Americans are a uniformly high-achieving racial minority that has assimilated well into American society through hard work, obedience to social mores and academic achievement. The term was first used in the 1960s by academics and journalists—and later by politicians—to create a divide among racial minorities and to downplay the role of racism in the inequities of American society, says Richard Lee, PhD, a professor of psychology at the University of Minnesota who studies race and ethnicity.
"In the midst of advocacy against racism, this was a very convenient tool," Lee says. "Elevating Asian Americans as a model minority essentially absolved white systems from taking real accountability for the inequities they've created."
Those beliefs include what researchers call the "perpetual foreigner" stereotype, which casts Asian Americans as fundamentally foreign individuals who will never fully assimilate into American society. For example, even second- and third-generation Asian Americans are frequently asked where they are from or told that they speak English surprisingly well."
"If one remarks on the heavy preponderance of African-American champions in track and field running events (especially, but not restricted to sprint ones) by saying, "Yes, they are so athletic--- such natural talent," that comment appears to be "innocent." Can you understand why it would offend Black people?"Yes I can. But if you are equating this with Chris's comment about hard working Asians I think perhaps you don't actually understand the issue.
Stereotyping any race in this manner is a form of eugenics. Whether it seems complimentary or not. The same people who actually believe this idea of physical superiority (proven quite conclusively not to be true) easily slide into negtive stereotypes. They are better athletes but not as smart and naturally lazy. A common stereotype of black people based on the idea that it is genetic.
But when one says that Asians are hard working that is much more of a cultural stereotype and one that is not demeaning or destructive. You have to come up with some pretty convoluted logic to turn a cultural virtue into a negative. And if that is what being woke is all about then no thank you
I thought woke was coming to grips with the fact that the ill effects of racism and mysogeny are not limited to overt examples and that we need to pay more attention to things like bias effects and long standing systemic institutions that unwittingly perpetuate inequalities. And most of all hold people accountable.
But if we can not acknowldege and even celebrate cultural differences then we really aren't in favor of true diveristy.
Belgians really do make better chocolate. It's not insulting to Belgians to say that. Quite the opposite. Same for Kiwi Rugby players, Dominican Republic baseball players etc etc.
Stereotyping by the way is destructive when assumptions are made about individuals based on the stereotype rather than the merits of the individual.
There are real cultural differences in this world and IMO they should be celebrated and respected. But every individual deserves to be treated as an individual not as a stereotype.
Do you see the difference?
Now let's get back to arguing about ****ing piano technique!!
Edits: 08/29/21
Here's a little education for you: Andrew Sullivan, in the "Great Awokening", described "Woke" in its current meaning as a "cult of social justice. . . a religion whose followers show the same zeal as any born-again Evangelical [Christian]" and who "punish heresy by banishing sinners from society or coercing them to public demonstrations of shame". Earlier this year, the British filmmaker and DJ Don Letts suggested that "in a world so woke you can't make a joke", it was difficult for young artists to make protest music without being accused of cultural appropriation.In any case, your example from track and field is completely irrelevant - no one has made any reference to that - except for YOU!
"Asians often are used as a contrast to other groups". - But the question is: was I using Asians as a contrast to African Americans? Only in your own demented mind. Tell me this: is the term, "hard working" completely out of bounds now in polite discussion? It seems so in your world.
The rest of your attempt to stick the "model minority" term on what I write is similarly beside the point. I sometimes think you go off on these tangents as a kind of self-congratulatory exercise in your own ego stroking.
Edits: 08/29/21 08/29/21
I often enjoy his posts. I have a sometimes dark and twisted sense of humor ;-) ;-)
"Speaking of an Asian's "work ethic" is, in the real world, a cliche"
Not if you are talking about specific people you have worked with. And that is who Chris was talking about.
And as cliches go I know a few Asians who will proudly own this one. Positive cultural cliches are hardly a problem
I have never heard any Jews get upset when the high percentage of accomplished Jews is pointed out.
I never ran into anyone from the Dominican Republic who got upset when their success in baseball is pointed out.
Never met a Kiwi who took offense to the notion that New Zealnders excel in Rugby.
Never met a Belgian that got bent out of shape when I have praised Belgians for their prowess as choclatiers.
I'll just address your first point: No, Chris was not talking about one student. Not at all.
"No, Chris was not talking about one student. Not at all."Never said he was talking about one student. I shall quote myself "Not if you are talking about specific people you have worked with. And that is who Chris was talking about."
PEOPLE plural. And yes, he was talking specifically about those people.
I will quote Chris.
"Almost all the people I accompany here in the SF Bay Area are Asian - wonderful people with a strong work ethic!"
He is talking about the Asian people he accompanies. Very clear, very specific.
Now if you take that as an inferance that Chris thinks Asians are, by cultural influence, "hard working people" I will refer you again to my previous post.
And once again quote myself"as cliches go I know a few Asians who will proudly own this one. Positive cultural cliches are hardly a problem
I have never heard any Jews get upset when the high percentage of accomplished Jews is pointed out.
I never ran into anyone from the Dominican Republic who got upset when their success in baseball is pointed out.
Never met a Kiwi who took offense to the notion that New Zealnders excel in Rugby.
Never met a Belgian that got bent out of shape when I have praised Belgians for their prowess as choclatiers."
The cliff notes version "Positive cultural cliches are hardly a problem"
Edits: 08/29/21
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