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This is in regards to the disagreement I have with Todd over technique and form of several pianists of note. As I had said before, I am not an expert on proper form at the keyboards but I do know a few things about it.
So I reached out to a friend who is a professional pianist and was/is (not sure if they are still there) an Instructor of piano at Juliard. Pretty confident this person who shall remain nameless knows a lot about piano form.
The opinions expressed were in some ways a bit surprising
So this is what was said in response to Todd's assertions
Todd stated: "Lang Lang is what I would call a "key slapper"...... He "slaps" the keys to create "dynamics".... (This is a trait of a lot of well-known pianists- Yuja Wang, Valentina Lisitsa, Kissin, and others also do this to varying degrees.... ) It produces a "piano roll" type of sound from the instrument..... It sounds "monotone" (where the better pianists strike the keys in a variety of "controlled" ways to create "tonal color" and dynamic shadings.... ) The articulation and timing become sloppy, and the dynamic control just isn't there..... The "sound" remains the same with different works and composers..... From my perspective, it tends to make the music "boring"..... (Note that others might like this style of playing.... Not everybody likes the same types of performance. And yet others might disagree that it is a questionable playing form.)
Lang Lang has performed a boatload of works, but there is nothing he's performed (aside from Gerswhin's Rhapsody in Blue, which tends to be forgiving to this type of playing), that has really impressed me."
This was the response.
"I agree with all of that! His (Lang Lang) technique is a bit strange but aside from his weird key slapping thing, there's no denying that his general facility at the keyboard is in the top .0001 of all pianists alive, Yuja Wang being two steps above that.
If anything about Lang Lang, it's just his absolute tastelessness in all things life and musical that turns the majority of the public away. I like to compare him to Anakin Skywalker: blessed with an insane amount of talent but always using his powers for evil."
My response:
"Interesting. You would put of Yuja Wang and Evgeny Kissin in the same catagory of key slapper?"
Their response:
"Oh no no no absolutely not! They are the real deal and neither of them EVER slap the keys in that weird ass way that he (Lang Lang) does
Sometimes I think he does that shit for show like a monkey. If you watch his old videos from when he was a Curtis student, he doesn't do that.
It seems to be like some weird trait he developed through fame
Yuja Wang is in a league of her own. She is the Simone Biles of piano. There isn't a soul on earth who comes even miles away from the natural gift she was born with. That's not an exaggeration at all.
If I were to take an excerpt of one minute of music and give myself two years of practicing JUST that one minute of music and do NOTHING but that, it still wouldn't come close to what she is able to do in about thirty seconds flat
That kind of talent is one in a Google plex. We will never see another pianist like her
It's not possible"
This should make for an interesting discussion... As some of you know, Yuja is a personal friend of mine but I have always felt she was in a league of her own as a pianist. It was interesting to see a true expert offer their opinions on the subject.
By the way, I want to apologize to Todd for some of the comments I made when I thought he was quoting someone else. I would not have been so aggessive in my disagreement had I known he was speaking for himself. All the quotation marks threw me. I meant no disrespect towards Todd.
Follow Ups:
I'm wondering aloud. All that really counts is finger on key, right ?.
the velocity of the key and the position of the pedals. It doesn't matter how the pianist achieves that velocity.
The monkey show.
Back to the (ahem) original topic. I agree with OP but I call them key pounders. Lang x 2 is one. Almost what I call the Chinese corporate sound, long on technique, shorter on musicianship.
As to the problem of classical music overall, the Russians seem to be doing fine, if the number of you tube uploads and views is any guide, especially younger prodigies. I especially like one named Ryan Martin Bradshaw, from Slovakia, father Australian, hence the kid next door name. Total opposite of a pounder, he draws a beautiful tone from the piano, and can play loud without getting klangy. Has a fine sense of dynamics, overall. He's won several competitions, mostly in Russia, like the Krainev and the Nutcracker in 2019, twelve years old. Has a fine feel for Chopin - listen to the Chopin #2 from the 2019 Krainev (which he won) to see what I mean. Get the upload lasting 34.01 minutes, not the one at 32 minutes. It's a better quality version.
But he's hardly the only one. A Russian, A. Malofeev has many thousands of views. He seems to getting more of a pounder as he gets older, unfortunately. Then there's E. Mysin, the "Russian Mozart", wildly popular in Russia, or Roman Sher, also a Nutcracker winner, 2020. Or the Hahn's. So the Russkis seem to be keeping the side in the game. Wish the US were doing half so well.
LowIQ
I had no idea how this one would spiral out of control.
I will agree 100% that she has the finest fingers, and the finest body, of any pianist alive.
Does she have the finest musical brain and heart? She's good but personally I've felt others are more compelling emotionally. If we mixed Beatrice Rana's heart with Yuja's fingers we'd have the closest thing to Franz Lizst.
and while I feel differently about her interpretive talent it's a moot point. I won't argue personal taste. I like Beatrice Rana
The acid test for any seemingly attractive musician is to listen to performances audio-only (no video)..... It often reveals how mediocre some of these performers really are..........
Katja, Yuja and Beatrice sure ain't mediocre
I cannot speak for others, but musically speaking, I was never wow'ed by anything Yuja Wang has performed......
But then again, I was never wow'ed by Daniel Barenboim...... Or conductor Carlos Kleiber.......
I agree, as I have seen Khatia Buniatshvili live and she was excellent. A very exciting performer.
"I agree, as I have seen Khatia Buniatshvili live and she was excellent. A very exciting performer."Unlike some other performers mentioned here, I've been impressed with Khatia...... My main complaint with her is she too often chooses tempos that are "fast" for my liking.... (I have a similar complaint about Martha Argerich... ) If she took some works a little slower, the Beethoven Concerto One for example, she'd be phenomenal.
Link is to an excellent performance of the Schumann Concerto with Paavo Jarvi and NHK...... (Although it was not exactly the best accompaniment I've heard with this concerto..... In fact, at the very end, the horn player played the familiar "horn call" several bars too late, I think it even distracted Khatia for a split second........ ) Enjoy!
Edits: 09/01/21
Good to see appreciative and insightful comments on Yuja Wang, leaving aside her physical appearance (if that's not too difficult).
She is definitely not a key-slapper. When I first heard a concert by Ashkenazy I was shocked by the key-slapping; you could see his somewhat flat fingers splash onto the keys to produce a loud splat. Still hear that in his recordings.
Yuja has better control over the keyboard than anyone today I can think of; she is close to Moravec and Michelangeli, maybe even Richter. The care with which she tapers a diminuendo is amazing.
She is a thinking musician, with a sound ideal of what she wants, not just the notes. When I first heard her recording of Petroushka, I thought,
'Sounds like Boulez and the Cleveland.' Later read an interview in which she said she was trying to sound like that performance.
You may also notice in some of her recordings with Orchestra, the piano is not as loud as with other pianists. Again, a deliberate attempt to achieve the most musical balance, rather than assuming the piano is the all important voice on the stage, no matter what.
Now back to her dresses and skirts....
I can set them up and post them. I used to do it quite often over on the Steve Hoffman forums
I wouldn't mind doing that..... Especially if the performers' names are not disclosed...... I just need to be familiar with the music performed.
Not just pianists, but any musician or conductor.......
hopefully we will get a lot of participants. It became pretty popular at the Steve Hoffman forums. Might be a little while though. I'm doing a lot of 15 hour days on this job in Cleveland..
You should take that extra money, and attend a few Cleveland Orchestra concerts at Severance Hall...... I don't know how close you are to University Circle and Case Western Reserve Univ., the place is on Euclid Ave. ......... It's a majestic edifice.........
We were going to move to Georgia at the end of September but we may be staying now until late October.
The last time I checked, concerts were on..... Although the subscription season does start in late October, in my recollections......I need to visit Cleveland..... It has been about 27 years since I've been there..... I need to attend the renovated hall.... I'm only familiar with the place prior to the renovation.
Edits: 09/04/21
When I listen to babe performances via audio only, I'm often surprised at how truly excellent they really are! ;-)
One trick pony, that one is.
.
Staying with Yuja, is THIS what you had in mind?
I mean, just how far IS that hemline going to ride up? I can already feel my lechery on the rise - Time to listen to some Scriabin! ;-)
.
.
my bad
d
The topic is technique and form. No one is arguing about Lang Lang's popularity among the fans
from the evidence of the quote, appear purposefully contrived to draw attention, to provide "theater."I question the instructor's opinion it "turns most people away." I don't know music sales, but I'd guess he outsells just about all other pianists and that his shows sell out faster. Classical music is entertainment or else it would just be about recordings.
Edits: 08/29/21
It was likely in reference to fellow classical musician friends and aquantances.
I don't agree that classical music "needs" him or any other individual for that matter. As successful as he is, he only accounts for a small fraction of the overall revenue of classical music as an industry.
an elitist, out-of-touch art form?The perception issue: music by long-dead white guys played by geezers in black dress-up. From what is reported in the press, perhaps accelerated by Covid, I get the impression there may be a life-and-death situation rapidly approaching for the industry.
"The decline of classical music's visibility in the mainstream media is a blow to an art that's struggling to draw audiences. ... The National Endowment for the Arts reports 11.6 percent of adults in the United States attended a classical music performance in 2002. By 2017, that number had dropped to 8.6 percent.May 20, 2019 bu.ed
Edits: 08/29/21
.
Classical music is alive and well. Thank you very little.
So what less American adults attend the concerts? It is thriving in other parts of the world, especially in the east Asia where it's appreciated, enjoyed, and studied by tens of millions of kids. There will be no shortage of talents, new artists and the audience for generations to come
All you need to know about young people today and classical music is 12 year old girls singing Nessun Dorma off key to standing ovations and Golden Buzzers.
There's no virtue in being old,
it just takes a long time
of course, the wealthy alone have kept the prominent orchestras in large cities afloat, for many years. Living in the US, I am concerned about the viability of live concerts and venues.
You're not concerned about anything except how woke the classical music world is.
If caring how a business--- or industry--- operates is important, then yes, I'm woke as hell.
yeah, some markets have suffered but that is more a function of the region than classical music per se. Other regions are thriving. Los Angeles is doing very very very well.
Until seeing your posts, I've never known anyone who viewed classical music as something performed by and/or for "white guys"...........
j
Out of curiosity, I did a search for 'classical music "white guys"' on Twitter (link).....
With the millions upon millions of tweets on that platform (with a good portion of them discussing race), this subject has come up only 13 times in the year 2021..... And none of those 13 tweets have had more than three responses.......
(There were only 33 such tweets in the year 2020, and only one lengthy discussion......)
That's fewer than the number of posts on the subject that you alone have put up on AA this year..... [-;
in this country, that it is a genre for OLD WHITE PEOPLE, overwhelmingly: only the blind would agree that. This forum is a great example, with the fact ZERO women participate yet another example of exclusivity.Classical music is the LEAST favorite music in the US, by far.
Frankly, I don't care about the popularity question, except as far as it impacts the longevity of the art. The expanding inclusion of women and people of color is a great recent development, though a ceiling exists for conductors/music directors. How else to explain the large numbers of those orchestra/soloist players vs those positions?
There are historical reasons, of course, for the whiteness of this art form; specifically, the European roots. But it's been a long time since the exportation of this wonderful music tradition to the US and non-European nations--- and high time to continue more forcefully to be inclusive.
Why not just let it happen? Because perceptions and history make folks concerned about being rejected after years of work. That is why there exist so many programs of out-reach. Imagine yourself, if you're a white guy, going to interview at an all black organization that has never employed a white guy--- and you knowing full well that race relations in this country are... less than ideal.
Edits: 08/30/21 08/30/21
....you're trying to frame anything imaginable as "racist".......
As what a bird once told me: If your only tool is the race card, everything looks like a "racist".......
"I know you are, but what am I!"
breathless example of self-unawareness.
d
But I'm confused: what's the "you are!"? (I'm only trying to understand.)
I thought the smiley face an appropriate touch.
I wouldn't begin to know what you're referring to, but. . . whatever.
Other than that, I have only this to say:
You can be a mean guy! If caring how a business--- or industry--- operates is important, then, yes, I'm unwoke as hell. ;-)
Man, you're such a poor little victim.
IGNORE him! Sooner or later he'll tire of it, and go into one of the other forums and start crap...He's a one trick pony. Too bad he doesn't take a sabbatical like he did before, it was pleasant around the place when he was gone.
the imminent death of classical music has been upon us for about 100+ years now. I don't put much stock in it. No doubt the Asian fan base has done a great deal of good.
We are very far removed at this point from piano technique. I would suggest starting a new thread on this topic
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