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24.7.1.152
In Reply to: RE: Okay, who was the greater composer, Prokofiev or Shostakovich? posted by Mali on May 02, 2021 at 18:14:30
Shostakovich had his moments ("Song of the Forests", "The Sun Shines Over Our Motherland", and let's not forget his attempt to write a Russian-style Broadway musical: Cheryomushki - "Cherry Town"!). But even in the cantata genre, Shostakovich has nothing to compare with Prokofiev's "Seven - They are Seven!" or "Cantata for the 20th Anniversary of the October Revolution". And if one considers the Rachmaninoff Second Symphony to belong partially to the 19th century, then the Prokofiev Sixth Symphony is clearly the greatest 20th-century symphony ever composed.
A lot of Shostakovich depends on the listeners' knowledge of the "secret meanings" in his music - like, he was secretly fighting against Stalin, or he was secretly depicting a stupid commissar (with equally stupid music!), or, in the Eighth String Quartet, secretly evoking the KGB knocking at the door. A lot of these secret meanings were thought up ex post facto by others, but this "secret understanding" still makes some people feel knowledgeable about the music. (And, c'mon, Todd: that Shostakovich Sixth Symphony has a finale which is nothing more than circus music!) Not to mention Shostakovich's ghastly re-orchestration of the Schumann Cello Concerto - which makes the original Schumann orchestration sound like an expert discourse on the subject! And every time I have to play that Shostakovich Cello Sonata, I bury my face in my palm and ask, "Why did I ever go into the music field?"
I can't for the life of me figure out how ANYBODY could prefer Shostakovich to an absolute master like Prokofiev, but such is the way of the world sometimes.
Follow Ups:
I agree that Prokofiev is the "better" composer, on so many fronts.And that his 6th symphony is arguably the greatest 20th century example. But then there is the amazing Shostakovich Symphony No. 8...
If we are going to nitpick (and we are), a major difference between P and S is the former came of age before WWI, and the latter afterwards. This difference means that Prokofiev, despite incredible acumen in counterpoint, melody writing and part writing, and writing many, many enduring masterpieces in various "auld" style (sonatas, ballets, symphonies), the most he could do was rethink his modernism by looking backwards (perhaps inspired by Stravinsky, perhaps not). But Shostavokich had a different psychological output. And as much as I like and admire his late serial style, it is only near the very end (the viola sonata, for instance), where a hint of genuine post-modernism begins to creep in.So if we are going to talk about REALLY great composers (after Stravinsky), we really should be talking about John Cage. :)
Edits: 06/05/21
Weren't they both written in the 20th by composers born in the 19th? Imo, Mahler's 9th & Das Lied (his "real" 9th?) eclipse both.
But I agree re Prokofiev's merits relative to Shostakovich's.
Jeremy
In fact, I do :)
"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields
Try this. Wonderful stuff.
Rohdestvensky's old Melodiya is still the sleaziest, IMHO.
I've been meaning to download Nelsons' Boston #4, (is Jarvi's old Chandos still the best and most shocking?), and still occasionally listen to the 1st, 5th, 6th, (Berglund), 7th, 8th (Petrenko) 10th, (Karajan), 11th, (Berglund/Wiggleworth), 12 (Yes!) 13th (Petrenko), but still haven't gotten around to the 14th and 15th. I've literally read about the 15th for probably three decades now, (the usual tropes), yet haven't heard it. Sign o' the times, I guess.
The Cello Sonatas and Concertos... Violin Concerti are definitely worth my time as well.
I like some Shostakovich, too, e.g., Piano Quintet, Fifth Symphony...
"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields
nt
When the 15th came out, I immediately bought the RCA issue with Ormandy.). The symphony made a big splash as did that recording back in a time when classical music still had some impact on America's consciousness. I wasn't impressed esp. with all the quotations of other composers which I didn't like. Recent rehearings reveal that I was all wrong and just didn't understand it, or at least it works for me now. I find it a very moving work.
Edits: 05/04/21 05/04/21
NT
Prokofiev never wrote anything so great.
,
I enjoyed a lot of Shostakovich over the radio and on Lp in my early- to mid- teen years, (including the 8th SQ) without ever being made aware of those "secret meanings."
Wobbly baritone, half in English, half-Russian, what could go wrong :)
made as a bet with conductor Nikolai Malko.
Jim
I think he worked it into one of his ballets too? (As an example of capitalist decadence. . . )
Shostakovitch is supposed to be better, but Prokoviev sure sounds better.It's a crowd-pleaser for sure, but the Prokoviev 5th symphony is deserved genius, like the Eroica.
And the Prokoviev piano concerti are so much more.
Edits: 05/03/21 05/03/21
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