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In Reply to: RE: Either I like the sound, or I don't. posted by peppy m. on April 13, 2021 at 16:58:26
NT
Follow Ups:
Different instruments and different playing styles make for different sound and feeling in a performance.
The only differences anyone should care about ?
NT
They play without vibrato too! AND they have different instruments and different playing styles! ;-)
I think with all the lack of vibrato here, HIPsters would be proud of this orchestra:
View YouTube Video
C'mon, admit it: even YOU have standards sometimes! ;-)
But they play with vibrato!
Nice non sequitur, there. : )
I think you're confused: HIP performances are charmless and arrogant, not Fischer and the BFO. If anything, Fischer gets a bit too cutesy in some of his performances, like the Beethoven Pastoral, where he switches Beethoven's writing for a full section to front-desk players only (at the beginning of the last movement IIRC), in contravention of the score. But, yes, they do play with vibrato, thank goodness!
How ironic is that? Anyway--
Comparing tastes in the timbre of modern or historical instruments to sounds produced by 3rd graders is specious, imho.
. . . you've never heard of HIP-influenced performances on modern instruments? You should get out more! ;-)
And the comparison of modern-instrument performances by 3rd graders to those of HIP practitioners is very much to the point when it comes to the subject of vibrato - not specious at all! It's as if the HIPsters stopped their musical training before they were taught (or learned) vibrato! There's something that just sounds stunted about their kind of playing. (And some of the execution on some HIP recordings isn't THAT different from that of the 3rd graders!)
It's a free country but I just get the feeling that at this point you couldn't admit deriving pleasure from any HIP performance, even if it drove you to augmented 7th Heaven.
With that,I'm bowing out. A fool's errand to continue.
And, yes, it's true: even performances on modern instruments can be HIP-influenced.
And, BTW, I have about half a dozen albums of Rameau opera suites - all HIP.
I'll reply directly to your Marais post.
NT
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And, yeah, you've got this thing for Scherchen. I guess that's all part of your charm!
As for me, I've got the complete Kubelik DG set as well as all the Mahler Fischer has recorded for Channel Classics. The rap against Fischer is that he's quite fast in some movements (kind of like Scherchen in the Beethoven symphonies?). Kubelik? Fischer? - I like them both, so it's a toss up for me.
getting in the way.
It's not an old-school thing, imho Janowski's youthful Suisse Romande is able to sound very comfortable in Bruckner's skin, and his idiom can elusive too.
But HIP definitely gets in the way! ;-)
A great example is Mehta's LAPO strings in their Decca Mahler's 3rd sixth movt vs Fischer's. Heck, even Janowski's youthful Suisse Romande string section seems more collectively comfortable and confident when playing Bruckner.
Sometimes it's good to be singular! ;-)
I own all the recordings you mention, and that was hardly my impression (i.e., that the BFO strings were lacking in unified purpose or direction, compared to other recordings). Nor do I know of a single other reviewer (or even poster) who has expressed the same sentiments as yours. Nothing wrong with that of course, and it doesn't make your opinion incorrect. But that's all it is: your opinion (unless you have something more objective to buttress it).
right? : )
The Budapest strings are pleasant enough, but, using the finale of the Mahler 3rd as an example, even when they soar, they seem to be flying into headwinds.
Mehta's LAPO corporate string sound, for example? They achieve what I call "tossing the score" and playing with abandon. I don't know of an M3 Finale that is more ravishing.
Odd, because otherwise I've never heard the LAPO mentioned when people talk about the world's best string sections.
When I lived down in the LA area, I remember radio station KFAC did a program about how there were four Strads which had been willed/gifted to the LAPO, for the express use of the principal players in each section for the duration of their time as LAPO members. I wonder if that might have something to do with the wonderful corporate sound of the orchestra's string section?
OTOH, Mehta's LAPO Mahler Fifth with the LAPO can be pretty slapdash, with a couple of violins even entering early at one point in the finale! It makes me wonder if the Decca engineers couldn't have used another take there instead!
... while disliking other things in the very same.
There is no *perfect performance* style, at least not to my ears. I like some Hogwood and some Furtwangler, as best as I can tell from the recordings I own.
Maybe if I'd ever heard either one of them live I might change my mind ?
Pick your poison(s) ?
heard over the car radio 30 years ago.
-from the guy who "authoritatively" judges new releases via snippets on a download site!
BTW, that guy who writes about a snippet heard on the car radio 30 years ago wouldn't also be you, would it? ;-)
and accellerando? Come on. The real issue was that I stepped on another beloved 5 channel release, Gardner's Berlioz Requiem. I had the audacity to say that I would have preferred a little more accellerando into the brass fanfare, though I don't know what the score calls for.: )
Wouldn't it be amusing if your anti-hip music web reviewer bombed that one as well?
Yeah there's no way you can really grasp the full measure of HIP without living with it for decades. Not living beside it, or across the street from it, but amassing a collection of depth and breadth; similar to the way one gets to know Mahler performing practice, from Scherchen, Rosbaud and Adler in Vienna to Dausgaard in Seattle and all the successes and failures in between.
No one has ever said that YouTube is incapable of capturing tempo, rubato, and accellerando. Where did you get that? I HAVE said that YouTube is incapable of capturing the subtleties of a performance, but that's no reason for you to make this other stuff up. And the fact that you don't like some accelerando in Gardner's Berlioz Requiem is hardly an "issue" for me - you flatter yourself. ;-)
And your last paragraph is nothing but silliness. I've had in my actual library over 80 performances of the Mahler Fifth (every one of which I've listened to), including the Scherchen VSOO. You? (Actually, it's probably not a good idea for you to go down this road.)
Some things I heard as a snippet on the car radio 30 years ago might be more meaningful today than the music I just listened to an hour ago.
Never underestimate the power of a debased mind.
Removing or adding vibrato or changing the instrumentation might help me focus on different aspects of a performance. Playing or singing sans vibrato (for instance) might force me to concentrate a little bit more on the formal or structural aspects of the music, and a little bit less on the emotive or romantic aspects of it.
These things equate to different ways of thinking about the music, that's all.
I choose to listen first but maybe I'm simply too inexperienced. Oh well.
d
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