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In Reply to: RE: Wow! Here's a reviewer who really knows what the story is with HIP! posted by Chris from Lafayette on April 13, 2021 at 02:18:23
Chris Salocks' comment that "The trouble is that, even if Beethoven did know this type of sound, there's little evidence that he was pleased with it!" NEGATES everything he has to say, as that perspective is EXACTLY the same presumption that infuses HIP itself.A couple of comments to temper the discourse. Original instruments (even modern versions in emulation) make sense, both objectively and artistically. If there is one thing that CAN be "proven" it is the physical characteristics and sound of old metal and wood constructions -- this is not voodoo, it's fact. Choosing to use them or not is a contemporary performing decision. Insisting on "right or wrong" is purely subjective.
I like the "salt perspective," as I encounter it every day. Folks who always add salt to their food think anything prepared without it is painfully bland. Folks who don't use salt think anything WITH salt is over-salted. Neither is wrong, neither is right.
As far as the "toy piano" comments regarding fortepianos, I will let the recordings of Paul Badura-Skoda stand in opposition.
Finally, with so many world class artists presenting HIP stylings, it is foolish to dismiss these interpretive decisions as simply "academic." The writer is a bit too self-absorbed and distracted by the politics to render a useful review -- a fact he admits up front when he states that he isn't sympathetic with HIP. MWI should not have given this review to him -- I guess that makes it an editorial decision, and not a music review at all.
Edits: 04/13/21 04/13/21Follow Ups:
I think you missed the key word, "if". ;-)So. . . IF Beethoven was not pleased with the pianos of his time, how does this negate everything else in the review? Is the "presumption" of "HIP itself" that we should use the very instruments which the composers themselves hated?
You say, "[o]riginal instruments (even modern versions in emulation) make sense" and "this is not voodoo, it's fact".
No, it's merely a misbegotten assertion on your part.;-)EDIT: Sorry for the low blow! But when you say "make sense", what does "make sense" mean in this context? IOW, "make sense" in terms of what?
Edits: 04/13/21
I'm OK with earlier styles of stringed instruments---they were not too bad.
But a clarinet (particularly), oboe or flute in 1800 was simply lousy compared to the modern style, which was mostly perfected by the French in the mid 1800's.
Earlier ones were--to be blunt--out of tune and honky on many notes, and moreover today there isn't the teaching or performance practice history for people to get really good at them to overcome their limitations.
And after Boehm and Buffet invented the system of modern flutes and clarinets, there wasn't much need to change them significantly after that, so for 170 years they've been accepted by musicians and composers as is---unlike the situation before.
I don't have much comment on the bassoon but it needs an overhaul.
I think brass instruments gained ability to play more keys chromatically with new technology but I don't know if their tone quality/intonation correctness improved as much.
So I'm OK with 1780 or 1800 stringed instruments but with modern winds.
I wasn't commenting on the condition ("if"), only the projection that the writer was making regarding Beethoven's mindset. I'm not comfortable with suppositions like, "If Beethoven heard Stravinsky, surely he wouldn't like his compositions." I am also not comfortable with, "HIP is a more accurate representation of the period performance style" -- it's the same hypothetical, to me.
"Make sense" is plain enough. The instruments existed, we either have them or can make copies, we make recordings with them.
Elsewhere in the thread, the idea of "degrees of HIP" is presented. That sounds about right. For example, having recently heard a segment of a Handel opera recorded back in the early 1960's or thereabouts -- that is, with big modern orchestra forces and romantic operatic vocals -- the whole thing sounded like goulash -- too big and thick. I just didn't buy it!;-)
You have the right to not like HIP and historic instruments. I don't like HIP all of the time (especially when it outright distorts the composition) and, yes, a harpsichord can be a disaster. But this is very conditional. For Baroque and Renaissance works, 90 percent of my listening is period instruments (100 percent for baroque opera).
Speaking of "low blow," I still think that the writer of the review shouldn't have been the writer of the review. Honestly, it feels like a pizza guy is preparing my sushi. Sorry!:-)
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Oh no! Somebody rushed the third movement of a Rachmaninoff Symphony!
But the constant, creepy mannerisms of HIP? Those always get a pass! ;-)
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Nt.
- Vibrato banished from strings
- Toy pianos
Of course, there's more than that (including clangsichords), but those two items are a good starting point.
As for vibrato, (or intentionally bend the pitch out of tune to add "spice"), we've established, with real-world exhibits ad nauseum, that it is employed by many HIP performers and groups every time this perennial thirsty post comes up.
Two "terms" for a school that's been around 70 years, has branched out in many different directions, not to mention HIP instruments are sometimes combined with modern instruments, (hybrid), and HIP style runs the gamut from extreme orthodoxy to a loose, pick and choose style.
I am aware that obsessing over the most extreme elements of any movement is all the rage these days. Less "terms" to deal with. : )
I don't think you've established your claim at all - but maybe now I'm having a hallucination! ;-)HIP performers may think about vibrato as they play a note or two - to them, that counts as "using" vibrato. ;-)
And, BTW, if HIP is combined with modern instruments, is it HIP anymore?
HIP - the Covid Virus of music! ;-)
Edits: 04/15/21
. . . a distortion of the composition. ;-)
And I know what you mean when you say that 90% of what you listen to in the Baroque and Renaissance periods is HIP. Some composers are almost impossible to access in non-HIP performances (think Rameau for example).
Finally, as far as the writer of the review is concerned, I think he's well on his way to becoming one of my all-time favorites - he's already far, far ahead of George Bernard Shaw! ;-)
d
and having a strong preference for the sound of modern instruments, I find the 'politicization' of such views a bit offensive.
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. . . in general, clangsichords are highly incapable, compared to more highly developed keyboard instruments. And, yes, I'm aware of the different tone colors you can get with the different stops and manuals.
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