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In Reply to: RE: Violins too bright? posted by alc777 on June 19, 2020 at 19:34:18
This has been an interesting and rewarding discussion: my reaction to loud violins in their high register may well be idiosyncratic, perhaps like an allergy — once exposed and sensitized to the allergen, you remain always on the outlook for a repeat performance.
A deeper bias could also be at work: I prefer violas to violins, trombones to trumpets, contralto to coloratura, and, in general, male voices to female.
To address Chris' question, symphony violins at a concert can be overwhelming, depending on the acoustics and where I am seated. On stage with the orchestra at a rehearsal, they are bright. String quartets tend to emphasize the first violin, no matter how unimportant the part may be in some sections of the piece, even if marked PP. Recording engineers seem to go along with this.
When the youth orchestra joined the adult orchestra, producing an improved tone quality, it could be the result of the same type of "ear averaging" that occurs when we listen to multiple violins, all slightly out of tune. We hear a single pitch, the amalgam of them all.
That Mahler 4th on YouTube linked by alc777, played straight from my computer to a cheap Yamaha integrated to Pioneer A. Jones speakers, does not sound strident at all. The Starker cello sounds great on the same desktop system - rich in harmonics and nuance.
I wonder if anyone finds the trumpets on this Sinatra item maybe a bit bright? His own label, Reprise, and almost everything it put out is like this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OU5J6gaW0k8&list=PLc4NxDAjUWeCiX5BQ4qYc0sMGez1jzdOz
But the strings at the bridge (1:00) are silky smooth...-.
(If I'd posted this to the Planar Asylum, I would be advised to change all my interconnects _and_ my power cord!)
Follow Ups:
not a good transfer though, both ends of the frequency range seems got cut off quiet a bit, the mastering removed most of the spacial information so the sound if very flat to me.
The Deucalion Projects sounds sharp to me, most of them. Videos from Bnf also tend to have highs emphasis to my ears. In general, I'd say French labels have high percentage of highs emphasis and German labels tend to have lows emphasis. I guess this probably has something to do with the language used.
That Haitink performance is excellent - thanks for bringing it to my attention.
My system seems to be accurate (the power amp is made in Taiwan), and I think I have discovered why I hear violins as sometimes bright.
When a violinist wants to play loudly, they move their bow toward the bridge. This increases the upper partials (harmonics)loudness in relation to the loudness of the fundamental (the note they are playing), giving a brighter sound.
This can be seen in the Haitink video at exactly the point where I found the strings to bright in the Fischer, at the descending scale passage that moves from violins to celli. If you play this in slow motion you can easily see the violinist of the left move the bow towards the bridge as she plays the passage.
Follow-up to my post with the link to the Haitink Mahler 4:
If you watch the violinist playing _before_ the descending scale you can see how close to the fingerboard the bow is, which gives a warmer sound, and then how she moves the bow towards the bridge to increase the loudness and, inevitably, the upper partials. When the whole violin section does this, it can get strident.
Some audio systems will reproduce these overtones more accurately than others. YouTube does not seem to have the necessary resolution.
We all hear differently, and the same person can hear the same thing at different times and notice new things. Critical listening involves experience and/or training (as in the Harman course) and may not be a good thing if you just want to enjoy the music.
Don't know why I didn't think of the relationship between bow position and overtones earlier; probably need to add some dynamic EQ to the chain.
. . . maybe the various recordings (as heard over your system) are reproducing the live sound fairly faithfully?
Just a couple of riffs on the topic:
1. Sometimes recordings were purposely made with too much treble energy. Many years ago I was in the cutting room at Decca and the engineer told me that "we always go for a strong treble cut". Of course many vintage Decca recordings are held up as models. It is worth appreciating that typical home cartridges of the 1950s and early 1960s had responses that rolled off pretty swiftly over 10kHz (as did the microphones). A "strong treble cut" may have made sense in that environment. Personally I now find some of my classic Decca widebands a touch too bright played with a modern cartridge. A touch that I can live with given their other magic.
2. Up until recent years I have always found CD players/ DACS unable to properly resolve the sound of mass violins. Solo violin, fine, many violins with all those overtones more difficult. Some could well hear this as excess brightness.
3. Check the treble responses of a selection of speakers tested in Stereophile over the past years. Surprising how many exhibit a treble rise often <5dB or more above the midrange (if that is used as the datum). This is apparently because having an accentuated treble impresses more in a showroom.
4. Most tweeters sound horrid to start with ;-). I remember Billy Woodman of ATC reported as saying that he hated all tweeters. Took him years to develop his own. My personal dislike of a class of speakers are those with a ribbon tweeter/conventional mid/bass where, in the main, the two just do not blend with the tweeter remaining exposed as a separate entity.
5.Most speakers are not made for listening to classical music. it is a minority interest and therefore need not bother the designer of typical speakers overmuch. Too much treble? Gives a nice sting to the sound of that Fender Telecaster and increases excitement. Sells more.
Me cynical?
"We need less, but better" - Dieter Rams
Not at all. Your points neatly summarize many of the problems associated with listening to recorded classical music.
As to your first point about cartridges from the 50's and 60's having rolled off high-frequency response, I agree, although some cartridges had some pretty noticeable peaks above 10kHz too.
Regarding the sound of massed violins on CD's, I've always felt that that was more a product of the prevailing primitive multi-microphoning done by the major companies of that time. In addition, many of the CD reissues early on were cavalierly managed in the rush to get titles out into the market. My opinion is that, even from the very beginning, there were SOME recordings on CD (and CD players) which dealt well with massed violins - so the negative perceptions had to be caused by other things. (Although I have to say that I've never been very familiar with THAT many CD players on the market at any given time.)
I remember when I was very young in Southern California, stereo was just catching on and my dad was getting his/our very first hi-fi system, he wanted to consult with my piano teacher, who had a big JBL speaker in his mono system. My teacher said that he liked JBL's because they had a "hard, quick, fast" sound, and, sure enough, we ended up with a pair of JBL's ourselves. Later on, when I was reading the hi-fi "pundits" of the day, I discovered that they considered the JBL (or "West Coast") sound more suitable for rock and pop, while classical music would be better served by a more covered (or less "in your face") "East Sound" sound, exemplified by speakers such as those from Acoustic Research. Since the JBL's were my "imprint" speakers, I somehow have always preferred that type of sound, even for classical music, and today, my current speakers have ribbon tweeters and ribbon midranges together with conventional 12" woofers (which BTW crossover at an unusually low Frequency - between 200 and 300 Hz).
As I mentioned before, in my case, the main determinant as to whether I perceive an edgy or bright sound from a given recording on a given system is the the presence (or not!) of an extended bass response.
" As I mentioned before, in my case, the main determinant as to whether I perceive an edgy or bright sound from a given recording on a given system is the the presence (or not!) of an extended bass response."
Yes indeed. And the converse can also be true. Improve the treble response and often one perceives improved bass too.
"We need less, but better" - Dieter Rams
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