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In Reply to: RE: On one of my older systems, I used to encounter sometimes excessive brightness too posted by Chris from Lafayette on June 20, 2020 at 00:51:11
. . .and then we get too much treble. Some people think a sub-woofer addition can help any system.
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Thanks for the comments and suggestions.
Am using Dirac, which gives a 2dB downward slope above 1000Hz. The Magnepan 3.7i speakers have a 1.5 ohm resistor in the ribbon tweeter path, and a 1.2 ohm in the mid-range path, as the MR has a quasi ribbon tweeter section which goes quite high.
Have also experimented with specific frequency EQs in the affected range. When there is bass on a recording it comes through cleanly and powerfully -on many jazz recordings I find the bass too heavy. The whole room is carpeted, with damping applied at first reflection points, plus difussion behind the speakers.
I think this is a problem with the violins and the way they are recorded.
Dr. Chaos mentioned that they are recorded from above; I have read comments by a recording engineer saying that this is the only way to record them, because the F holes point up, unlike the lower strings (ignoring the violas as they don't play very high). If this is gospel, no wonder they are bright! And if mastering engineers have the same aesthetic, they will boost the highs; or maybe some do so as a leftover habit from the days of mastering for LP, or to make sure the sound is bright enough in a car.
Telarc used to use four evenly spaced omnis across the front of the stage, and in general I have found their orchestral recordings the least offensive in the high frequencies. The SF symphony also uses four omnis, but raised to 9' above the orchestra, plus spot mics.
The main problem, I suspect, is the violins. The steel E string (the highest) did not become available until ca 1907, so the majority of the symphonic repertoire was written for and originally heard on gut strings, which are much less brilliant. The concertmaster of a large symphony told me about 20 years ago that he wished there could be a return to gut, but that there was a culture among violinists of getting more and more power and brilliance from their instruments.
Then there is the question of the number of violins. Bruckner referred in his scores to the practice of the Wiener Philharmoniker, including a string orchestra of ca. 12-12-10-8-8. Only 12 first violins, compared to the 18 that is common today. And these additional strings have not been balanced by additional brass and woodwinds.
Have found this vln brightness listening through headphones, and on speakers I try to limit the loudness to occasional peaks of 80dBA.
Perhaps John Marks, who is knowledgeable on both recording and violinists, will have something to say on this.
So we hear differently. I see the 1:30 and 2:30 violin sound you've mentioned within normal recording variations, as least, they don't bother me.
While they don't bother me, I don't consider that is a top recording. I found Haitink's has a better string sound and I can hear more details in the performance.
I see audio listening a compromised but already very satisfying thing. Recording and mastering always re-shape the original sound but I found the engineers usually have sharp ears and most of them do know their job. The better I tune my system, the more I hear from the recordings. I use Pass amps with McIntosh speakers which has 23 tweeters on one side, the violin sound is pretty good to me, most of the time.
. . . you're hearing excessive brightness on many recordings whereas it seems most of the rest of us here are not.
Your comment about the number of microphones and their distance from the orchestra seems very relevant to me. Recording engineers have the means to place microphones in more ideal locations (where I could never be seated as a listener!) - and I appreciate that! As a young listener, I grew up on the close-in, minimally-microphoned Mercury Living Presence recordings, and I suppose that's shaped my expectations of music. Unless I'm sitting in rows 5-7, I tend to be disappointed with the sound of live concerts!
Also, I don't agree with your point about violins swamping the rest of the instruments in modern orchestras: the other instruments have also acquired more capability in volume projection over the years, so that, IMHO, they're the ones who often swamp the strings (especially in repertoire like the Bruckner symphonies!). Also, acoustically, when you go from your example of 12 violins to 18 violins, you're not increasing the total violin volume nearly as much as most people think you might be. Have you ever seen one of those concerts where an organization's youth orchestra sits and plays side by side with the main (adult) orchestra for a concert? Is the volume twice as loud? Certainly not in my experience - what I found instead was that the overall tone quality improved (despite the more ratty instruments which the kids tended to have!).
Excessive tonal brightness is a very interesting subject, and there seem to be so many factors which contribute to our individual perceptions of it. ;-)
In their CD rips, so many of these sound terribly bright and to me unlistenable, despite their wonderful imaging and soundstage.
I do treasure the SACD reissue of Starker's Bach cello suites, which is a 3-channel recording that gives a very realistic picture of a cellist!
I still treasure them all today myself! Of course, the recordings did improve over time, with the pinnacle IMHO being the recordings done on 35mm magnetic film.
Regarding Starker's Bach Cello Suites, there's a remastering done by Thomas Fine (the son of Robert and Wilma, as I'm sure you know) for Analog Productions, which I believe is only available on 45 rpm vinyl so far. PS Audio's Copper magazine (or ezine!) had an interview with him about this remastering near the end of 2019 IIRC. But, as you say, the three-channel SACD's (which I also have myself) give a very realistic sound picture, with the three channels giving an extra dimensionality to the experience. You might also find this promo video ("unboxing the vinyl") from Acoustic Sounds interesting:
View YouTube Video
Chris, thanks for sharing the promo video. I don't buy vinyl anymore, but I wish Analogue would issue an SACD stemming from the master tapes they used to make these LPs!
I think we have quite a bit more choice in general. ;-)
And of course, one doesn't have to rely exclusively on a single platform - recently, I've been joking (in a couple of posts anyway) over at Vinyl Asylum about adding vinyl back to my system. Very, very unlikely - but I can't say with 100% certainty that it will NEVER happen! (But if it does, you'll know I've really gone off the rails!) ;-)
"The concertmaster of a large symphony told me about 20 years ago that he wished there could be a return to gut, but that there was a culture among violinists of getting more and more power and brilliance from their instruments."
And they took their great old instruments apart to lengthen the necks. Much of this was done to satisfy the growing size of the concert halls.
The original instrument movement has returned to gut and, generally, to smaller halls.
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