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Who's next?
Musicians are being paid at reduced rates, but how long can that go on?
Enjoy your Old Recordings.
They may be all we have pretty soon.
You know, Old Recordings.
AKA ALL Recordings...
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Remind me again: Why were they eating pangolins and bats in that Wuhan lab? Were they all out of egg rolls?
"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields
Do pay per view videos, like Berlin...... It's the only real option.........
I listen to Hi-Res Music on my Stereo.
There may be some recordings in the Vault to be released in the Future.
Of course, if they are going out of business, probably won't bother.
Not like recordings make any money anyway.
Indeed!
The performing artist should be performing for love of the art - not because he or she would stand to make a lot of money! The true artist is compelled to perform by inner necessity, not by money - How vile to be thinking of mammon in one's artistic endeavors! (Of course, as the "Boris" character in Woody Allen's "Love and Death" once replied sympathetically, "well. . . money!")
I've been contacted by a couple of people asking if I would like to resume my piano accompanying on certain dates (one person mentioned October). I haven't replied yet, because I'm unsure whether I really want to risk possible virus exposure in the workshops, rehearsals, auditions, recording sessions, recitals, etc.
Oh. . . and BTW. . . I listen to MY hi-rez music and webcasts with a 65" TV over the center speaker - hopefully soon to be an 85" TV (if I can figure out the mechanics and installation details - it's always somethin'!) Love them blu-rays! ;-)
Neither the NYPO nor the BP will ever get many of my $$ until they can do better than the 320 Kbit/s audio on the DCH. They can also do better with mike placement and quality.
Interesting that the DCH has gone to 4K video rather than use the bandwidth for better audio. They seem to be more interested in sight than in sound. Not that wise for orchestral concerts IMO.
I do not recall that Phiharmonic Hall (I will always call it that) records very well based on live broadcasting. Carnegie* does much better based on Medici.tv concerts.
And will anyone pay for the NYPO when the Berliners are available?
*though I am not a fan of the hall live
"Neither the NYPO nor the BP will ever get many of my $$ until they can do better than the 320 Kbit/s audio on the DCH. They can also do better with mike placement and quality."
320 kbps is not nearly as bad as some of us would believe..... Mind you, I ran a test on AA a while back, most people preferred the 320 kbps converted to CD over the native CD resolution............ I also contend that most recordings and DACs aren't good enough to where the added resolution provides audible benefit.
A big reason why the resolution isn't higher is that there would be a lot more hesitation in playback at higher resolutions.
"And will anyone pay for the NYPO when the Berliners are available?"
Berlin may be the better orchestra, but what's being performed and/or the conductor (or concerto soloist) could be an overriding factor. (I would rather listen to the NYPO performing Beethoven's Seventh over Berlin performing Ravel's "Bolero", if you get the gist..... )
One would think that the NYPO also has a big enough following to draw a good paying audience online.......
As for SQ, my test is simple. When I turn off the screen, can I see the performers focused well in 3d space? With the better red book, I can. With DCH I can see them left to right, not particularly well focused. As for tone, listen to the English horn solo I wrote about a few days ago for instrumental tone. I believe it to be unique from this source, but they were using two studio mikes there. You can talk about "most" DACs. Most folks here don't use "most" DACs. Compare DCH SQ to the better live recordings from Amsterdam, for ex.
If they gave a fraction of the bandwidth they are using to upscale to 4k, don't you think they could overcome any "hesitation" issue?
As for what's being performed, is there anything you want to hear from the NYPO that is not on the Berlin site that has been recording for more than 20 years? And in a better acoustic? Any conductor, any soloist? And are you going to compare how the BP plays for Petrenko with how the NYPO plays for anyone? Do you think there's not a reason the NY band has, historically, found it difficult to attract a conductor of the first rank?
Why wouldn't I? After all, even though I haven't heard too much of Petrenko's work (Tchaikovsky Pathetique, Suk), I doubt that he's the be all and end all of current conductors.
"Do you think there's not a reason the NY band has, historically, found it difficult to attract a conductor of the first rank?"
That's an interesting question, which probably would have a number of non-musical elements feeding into the answer. In any case, I'm not sure I'd always want to hear Petrenko in preference to van Zweden.
All I'm suggesting (I think in agreement with your basic point) is that the SQ for the BPO's DCH is not the greatest, and, if the NYPO started releasing more outstanding productions (as far as the engineering would be concerned), I might indeed prefer their "product" to the BPO's.
Petrenko was not the point of my post, though I would be happy to take up his case. The orchestra is the point. How the BP plays for Petrenko is. How they play for others is too.
The paywall is down this week again for Harnoncourt's Beethoven 5th. Have a look. See how they respond to him. If you've heard a better one I'd like to know about it.
As for the NYPO attracting a conductor of the first rank you write that there are non-musical elements feeding into the answer. I'd be interested to know what you think those are. Because something has worked against this orchestra for a very very long time.
It's recorded in much better sound (MCh 24/48) than I'm going to hear on DCH. I'm glad I purchased it, and it allows me to judge Harnoncourt's and the BPO's respective contributions much more fairly than a DCH performance would. My personal view is that the BPO was a more dominant orchestra (compared to the other orchestras in the world) during the Karajan era than it has become since then. Other orchestras today are closer in whatever aspect you want to compare (execution, tone production, etc.) - and sometimes they're even superior (Concertgebouw Orchestra, anyone?). As for the NYPO, I'm not nearly as current with their playing these days, and indeed, the most recent recording I heard from them (van Zweden doing the Beethoven Fifth) was a surprisingly cavalier and low-intensity effort. Nevertheless, I think the NYPO has the calibre of players to allow the ensemble to "outgun" the BPO on a given night. Musical training has just gotten too good over the years. As I've posted before, even second- (or third-) tier German orchestras are capable of amazingly virtuosic and musicianly performances these days - something I would never have believed when I was listening to my Vox and Turnabout LP's of orchestras such as the Bochum Symphony Orchestra. (Come to think of it, maybe that orchestra has improved beyond all recognition in the decades since I last heard them!)Regarding the non-musical elements feeding into the selection of the NYPO music director, I was thinking along the lines of general politics, or too many airline executives on the symphony board, etc. - it can happen to any US orchestra! ;-) In many ways, I think Masur was a great conductor (especially during his years with the LGO) - he just got to NY slightly beyond his prime.
Edits: 06/11/20
On the subject of getting a top notch conductor, do you think the NYPO board is sufficiently different from the Chicago, Cleveland, Boston, Pittsburgh (and on and on) boards?There has never been an issue about the ability of the NYPO to attract great individual players. The City is teaming with talented musicians. The pity of it is that the classical musical scene is so limited. I have seen obvious pick-up groups do very well playing in very awkward quarters. NY needs another, and modern, hall. But the NYPO has a reputation of doing it their way and not the conductor's way. IIRC it was Celibidache who, based on its reputation of the day, called its members "mafioso."
We attended very often during the Masur (who was quickly recruited when Abbado refused to come) era as we had a friend on the symphony staff. Sat all over the terrible hall. Sometimes we could see the cellos sawing away and could hear nothing. Masur was b-o-r-i-n-g. He was IMO the personification of a kapellmeister with a very limited repertoire that was worth hearing. I remember, like it was yesterday, getting angry at his conducting of Kodaly and thinking he had absolutely no understanding of its folk roots. Rarely, by the way, would we get through a concert in those days without missed notes on the French horns. What explains that? We would try to opt for guest conductors--a great one of the era there was Temirkanov. When we paid it was usually for Carnegie.
It's arrogance. Recall the story of the sold-out BENEFIT performance (for the players' own pension fund, no less) led by Gilbert Kaplan (with no fee, of course) and the notorious and well publicized resistance to someone who had conducted the Mahler 2 all over the world, and had recorded it twice including with the VPO. Of course, he was not a "conductor" but, in fact, the performance was favorably reviewed. However he had to pull hairs to pull it together. Referring even to the very first bars he was quoted, in a long article on the subject, as saying to meet the prolonged resistance, "Why don't we just play it the way Mahler wrote it."
You have written that van Zweden recorded a disappointing Beethoven fifth, a staple of the repertoire. So I will ask you again. Why do you think they have not attracted a first rank conductor in his or her prime over all these years?
Edits: 06/12/20
Regarding who happens to be leading the various US orchestras at the present time, I don't agree with you that it's "on and on" regarding the other symphony boards in the US. After all, would you say that FWM (in Cleveland) is really a great conductor, compared to van Zweden? I wouldn't. Just because van Zweden and the NYPO released an anodyne (IMHO) Beethoven Fifth doesn't mean they can't wow us in other repertoire - indeed, van Zweden was said to have done exactly that during his time in Dallas. And I have recordings of his interpretations with his Dutch orchestras of other repertoire (Haydn, Bruckner) which, to me, sound pretty darned good! To me, the jury is still out on his work in NY - I can't judge just on the basis of a single recording. And BTW, do you REALLY think FWM is better? Overall, based on what I've heard, that is definitely not the case for me. One more thing about the boards, we have a board out here in SF which has imposed MTT on us for 25 years - enough said! I do acknowledge that the Pittsburgh and Boston choices currently look to be very promising, and I guess Muti has certainly proven himself in Chicago.
Living in CA, I'll say up front that I do not have the experience with the NYPO playing live (say, on broadcasts or telecasts) that you do. So I obviously can't defend Masur against your charge of being "boring" in the live performances you attended. However, I've seen both Masur (conducting his LGO and well as guest conducting the SFS) and Temirkanov (conducting his St. Petersburg Phil), and I would by no means award the prize to Temirkanov - both in fact put out own MTT to shame! (Maybe the grass is always greener on the other side!)
Your anecdote about Kaplan is consistent with what I've read about what Celibidache described as the "mafioso" attitude about the ensemble - but I read this stuff many years ago and I don't know if it still applies today. After all, when did Celibidache die?
Regarding your last question, "Why do you think they have not attracted a first rank conductor in his or her prime over all these years?", I'd say things like that just happen. Another example: Zubin Mehta seemed to become a much less interesting conductor once he took over in NY, compared to how he fared earlier in LA. (Maybe I'm bolstering your point my noting this!)
Anyway, I have one last question for you: who do you think are the front rank (or "great" if you will) conductors these days? One choice I would put forward is Vladimir Jurowski, even though that doesn't mean that all his recordings are tops. But I feel as if I know enough of his work (via broadcast and recordings, as well as attendance at a concert where he conducted his LPO in Royal Festival Hall), to be pretty confident that he could be a wonderful choice at the helm of an orchestra here in the US.
p.s.: I see that the latest FWM/Cleveland Orchestra anthology just got a rave over at MWI. Maybe time for me to sample some of it. Who knows, I could change my opinion about him!
. . . is simply the not very good symphonic music scene in New York. And at home in NYC for Covid reasons (though all four of us here have had it and now have anti-bodies) I have the time to pontificate.
Carnegie basically sells out the good seats to all its important series to continuing subscribers months before the season starts (and the difference between good and not so good seats in that hall is quite substantial). You almost have to inherit a series with good seats. The Philharmonic and its hall is . . . well, we've discussed that.
New York needs a third, and a modern, hall.
Celi is gone, but the Kaplan story is only 12 years old. I suspect orchestra personnel have not changed very much since then.
You seem to want to turn this conversation from orchestras to conductors. I tried to avoid that. The only reason for bringing up conductors at all is I thought it was universally understood that the NYPO is an orchestra that good conductors have avoided over the years, beyond an occasional cameo appearance, and the possibility of a decent bagel.
As for SF, the national press seems to give MTT a great deal of credit for an increasing stature of the SFO. In a 2010 Gramophone the NYPO was rated at #12, the SFO at #13. Not bad for a city 1/10th the size. and a metro area about 1/5. Or not good for NY rated behind Cleveland, LA (their hall given significant credit), Boston and of course Chicago. [This international list goes to 20 and Philadelphia is not on it, by the way. I think at the time they were suffering leadership issues.] I gather from reading that SF suffers too in that Davies Hall is acoustically inferior. So much money paid out to acoustic/architect experts. And then the same for alterations. NY has had 4 (?) and another on the way. Why don't they simply go to a good hall and copy it?
As for conductors, I shall have to think more about great conductors of today, and I know about them almost entirely by recording or stream. Problems is that I do not buy many new recordings these days as you seem to do. I know about current personalities principally from sources like DCH, Medici and youtube. But Petrenko would surely be on my list. His performances with the BP seem always to be very special occasions, as was his performance with the Munich Opera that I attended at Carnegie. He certainly does have a musical personality, notwithstanding any disagreement you may have over interpretation.
The only thing I'd caution about is placing too much trust in how Gramophone ranks orchestras. When we've talked about this topic before (i.e., orchestra rankings), it really does seem to be an insoluble question - I don't know anyone who goes galavanting all over the world just to see how each orchestra does on a day-in, day-out basis. In order to have any sense at all of a given orchestra's quality, we're all forced by necessity to resort to the means you list: DCH (and similar orchestral broadcasts), Medici, YouTube, and recordings. Even an orchestra's broadcasts may not be a trustworthy indicator, since many of these "live concerts" have ex post facto surgery done on them, or (as in the case of the SF Symphony) each series of three or four concerts (of the same program) is cobbled together to make a single "live concert" which never existed as such in reality! I've read acounts which relate that even the Abbado/Lucerne blu-ray videos (with its all-star orchestra of perfect players!) have had editing done on them (and sometimes major editing!), even though they're presented as live, "real" events. OK, I'm going off on a tangent - I'll stop! ;-) (Interesting discussion nonetheless!)
p.s.: Strangely enough, I recall hearing a NYPO broadcast a couple of years ago where Thibaudet played the Saint-Saens Piano Concerto No. 5 ("The Egyptian"). Despite what I said about all the editing of supposed "live" concerts, Thibaudet had a big memory slip in the middle of one of the movements, and it was left in the syndicated broadcast - nobody edited in an unblemished section from one of the (presumed) other performances. In a way, I kind of like it that they didn't choose "perfection" in this case! ;-)
The NYPO does (or at least used to do) live broadcasting to the local FM classical music station on a weekly basis. No editing of course. What you heard was quite obviously one of those. The Berlin band streams live, but probably edits thereafter for their large inventory of performances.
Not saying you're necessarily wrong - but you ARE a voice in the wilderness! ;-)
Depends on who's conducting? ;-)
And you said yourself that the BPO could do better with microphone placement and quality. To me, that's an important consideration, so if the NYPO did better in that respect, I'd prefer them - especially if their performances were available in MCh (LOL!).
In any case, it's not an either/or proposition - just as with any other music medium (downloads, CD's or LP's). In addition, I doubt we're going to get a real solution to the current problems until we get a vaccine, or the virus dies away on its own.
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