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Some of the regulars here might recall a thread from Roy in Norway seeking help with a powercord that needed a European Schuko plug. Roy bought this cable from the states and it arrived with the usual US nema three prong plug. The manufacturer Electra Glide was initially not very cooperative if not downright nasty to Roy but eventually offered to change the plug for something like $75-100 plus shipping back and forth.I volunteered to send Roy a high quality Schuko plug or install one for him (for the cost of the return postage) if he sent me the cable (I´m in Germany). He has since sent me the powercord and a nice CD as "payment".
What I am now about to say is only done so because I was so totally shocked when I removed the NEMA plug to install the Schuko. This product is the biggest Flim Flam rip-off I have ever seen (sorry if this hurts Roy, I know you paid a bundle for it) and everyone should be warned about it.
This cable, if you can call it that, consists of two flat copper strips each of which are shoved through a semi-flexible clear PVC tube. The tubes are sprayed with a non-conductive copperish-gold color paint and covered with a black woven jacket. That's it. No ground and no shield. The whole thing is shoved into the connectors and held together with tons of hotglue. The workmanship leaves much to be desired.
The flat copper strips work out to be about 13awg but are cut down to a narrow strip on each end to go into the connector. The effective wire size that makes contact is about 18awg.
Electra Glide calls this cable the Fatman 2000 Gold. I don't know what it costs but I think someone here mentioned $2500. The copper band used costs about $1-2/ft, the PVC tube even less and the connectors and woven jacket about $10. For a 6 foot "cable" that's about $40 tops plus labor to assemble it which is probably more than the material costs.
The only cable even worse than this was an Aural Symphonics phono cable a friend sent me to fix, it hummed like crazy. This cable was a real treat made from a 5 conductor AC hook-up cable shoved in a corrugated plastic conduit. The conduit was covered with a shield and the ever present Tech-Flex like woven jacket. Remember this was supposed to be a phono cable! The 5 pin connector for the tonearm was connected via a short length of real tonearm wire to this massive welding cable sized monster. One side of each of the cartridge channels was soldered to the massive 5 strand powercord and the other side to the shield on the outside of the plastic tube. No wonder it hummed. This was another multi-thousand dollar cable with about $50 worth of material. The phono plug probably cost more than the whole of the rest of the cable.
Fortunately there are some serious audio cable manufacturers out there like XLO, Cardas, Kimber, Straightwire and others but the likes of the above should be avoided.
Follow Ups:
are you sure you've got hold of an original cable?Did you buy from a recognised dealer?
Did the cable come in its original packaging?
If purchased used, did you get a copy of the receipt from the original purchase, which identified the dealer from where it came?
With the price of cables going through the roof, there are plenty of immitations floating around.
I have had and extensive dialog with Electraglide concerning the
retermination of this cord. During this dialog it was obvious that
the persons I bought this cord from (an unoffical dealer - as he
calls himself) was well known to Electraglide. Actually Electraglide
prefered me contacting them through him. This unoffical dealer
has sold numerous other Electraglide cords on www.audiogon.com.
The Fatman and what your {GOD} Garth say's is not true of our production cords.We ground our cords for production.And use a heat shrink Teflon which is expensive......The copper ribbons are 6'9's oxg free 9 gauge.Frozen to -109 degrees for 5 day's and damped and polished and very expensive+labor .I think you got a euro proto.Only by some sort of rare accident.
Your lack of talking to me before you let someone else in your cord concerns me!We already had a shuko replacement in the works!The cord never showed up.I would have replaced it with a non-prototype if this were done.The Genghis Khan is all pure silver...you have a choice of grounded or not.Most float for hum reduction...Good Luck.And please deal with a real dealer from now own.Like weekend enviraments.All this could have been avoided.Less stress on you and me Sincerely, Scott Hall @ EGA
If I send the "prototype" back to you, would you be willing to send a
production model to us for inspection. We could post the result on
AA.
Sure!Why not?I thought you were already sending it for 3 weeks.Do you want grounded or ungrounded? SH
Please please please send it we are soooo soooo tired of all this.Let's just send you a brand new one! But first send the real Micheal Angelo.Then leave us alone?!Deal???? SH
These are the conditions.
Garth will remove the work he has done on the cord. You will only
get the pieces that is left. I will not pay you the $400,- you wrote
in the e-mail to me that you wanted for the replacement (because the
new one is a newer version), I want the new one terminated with a
Schuko and I want the cord grounded. You send me the replacment cord
first. I return the proto after I have received your replacment. You
pay for shipping of the new cord to me. Do we have a deal based on
these conditions????If you do accept, you post a message to this board that you accept
and give me the date when I can be certain that I have received the
cord.
No you send the cord like it is.And I will send you a free new one.Grounded.You pay the shipping to get it to us and we will airborn express you the replacement.And the nasty letter to JA is corrected.That's my only deal.Scott
......sending Roy's proto cable (as is) to a neutral 3rd party here in the States (perhaps someone trustworthy on this very forum, such as Bob Neill), who can verify to Scott that the cable is in hand. Scott can then Airborne Express the free new cable to Roy and everybody wins.Each party pays their own shipping to make things less adversarial, as Scott has suggested above.
This, to me, is an excellent and simple solution, without any further animosity between the parties. Roy gets what he wanted in the first place (the grounded Schuko termination), and Scott stands behind his product and service. Again, everybody wins.
alan m. kafton
Thanks for trying to resolve the situation.
There is however a third party involved in this situation.
That is Garth. He has benn called a liar and had to stand
for a lot of unfair treatment from Scott. Garth has reterminated
my cord for free. He has also used a Schuko plug which he has
used considerable time to find. He is not very keen on letting
any competition having his plug and least of all Scott Hall.
Therefor it is out of the question to send the cord as it is
now.
This has gotten far too complicated. Have Garth quickly remove his Schuko and re-terminate with Scott's NEMA plug. Scott just wants his proto cable returned. He probably doesn't care a whit about Garth's Schuko in the first place. And you can reimburse Garth for that plug. To be fair, Scott just wants his original cable back, and he'll provide you with a brand new, grounded Schuko-terminated power cable in exchange. He's agreed to that.Keep this simple. You can reward and thank Garth at any time for his extraordinary service. But raising another emotional issue regarding Garth does not solve your situation, but only complicates it. Broadcasting these new issues will not help you resolve things either, but create more animosity.
Ask a neutral third party to be the intermediary, and get this taken care of. If Bob Neill doesn't agree to this, then Clark Johnsen, his dealer, can step in. Hell, if neither of them want to do this, I will. Let's get this resolved fairly for both parties, and now.
alan m. kafton
This is something I can accept, but Garth has the cord and I can`t
speak for him.
......and he is agreeable to my proposal."Thanks Alan I would agree to that. Sincerley Scott"
Are you in agreement as well, Roy?
alan m. kafton
It's your cord, and your money at stake. I would think that, being a professional, he will do what is best for YOU, the customer. Just ask him nicely to re-terminate the cable with the original NEMA plug, and arrange the shipping as agreed to between you and Scott Hall. Pay Garth what he feels is fair for his services (if he chooses) and for the Schuko plug he had to purchase. Simple.Don't stand on ceremony, or hurt feelings. Just get this resolved quickly, quietly, and more amicably. Everybody wins.
alan m. kafton
I accept and Garth has accepted to put the original termination on.
Now all that we need do is arrange the transfer. Again, Scott is agreeable to a 3rd party. Do you wish a 3rd party intermediary, or will you have Garth ship the cable directly to Scott? That's all that remains to decide.alan
I have already made arrangements for a third party to take care of
our agreement. I have will also tell John Atkinson not to persue
this.
Thanks for being a model of civility and
what can be accomplished on the web!Hat's off to alan and ken for the sanity-check.
æ
zip-zap
Yes, I sent an e-mail to John Atkinson of Stereophile with a link to
Garth`s description of what he found when he opened the cord and I
can assure you that if you don`t take this deal on the terms I posted
above, he will receive the cord to see for himself.
Then there will be no deal!!! I am not trusting you to send me
anything. Therefor I will hold on to my cord until you send me
a replacement. The cord is the only evidence I have of what has
happend.
Hi Roy (and Scott),I feel I should interject here. The issues at hand here are centered around constuction techniques and electrical regulations vis-a-vis the grounding concerns. Whether the cord is a real EGA product or not, we cannot confirm unless Scott can verify it being an authority at EGA.
Roy, snap some pictures of the cord and even camcorder it to retain the proof you value so highly at this point. I think in your best interests, you should try and get an actual factory new cord from EGA as it will have mush greater value than one which has been modified and worked on after market by thid parties.
Scott's words and conditions have been expressed here and I am sure that all of us would support any party who keeps to their end of the bargain.
As a last issue, remember that often in audio what often works is not the most elaborate and complicated solutions. Have you ever glanced inside a $6000 Hovland preamp? Scott for example, has given us some insight here to the quality of parts (and part treatment / conditioning) he employs in the powercords. We have to take into account the effort in research and time it takes to develop a product. A lot of what's in that cord is intellectual property too.
When issues of integrity are in question, we have to take into account that this can permanently damage reputations, and quite possibly lead to the demise of entire companies. The testimonials and reviews ARE the proof in the pudding and for this, EGA should be respected. We all have the luxury of our own discretion to determine the value of their products.
I hope that everything works out for you,
Ken.
Ken I commend you!You a are not insane on the asylum block!Scott
Hi Scott/EGA,No problem at all. It really bothers me when disagreements between customers and companies are dragged out into to public arena(s) without prior knowledge of the situtation from both perspectives. I certainly hope that a fair and hasty consensus for a satisfactory resolution can be reached. Thanks for visiting the Asylum, I always take great pleasure in reading and sharing any thoughts from the audio industry. Perhaps I can find it within my budget one day to sample and indulge in some of your product offerings.
Sincerely,
Ken
I just got this e-mail from Scott Hall. Judge the contents for yourself:"Excuse me Roysen,But a CES prototype for Las Vegas sent to Europe..... and you did not buy from a dealer! No one ever said the fatman was silver if so you are lying!The Genghis Khan is. I am done with you .You lied about sending the cord back for termination here and you let some jackass go inside. I would of found you had a accidental proto if you Roysen had kept up your end of the crap you started on the net. I will move forward today not even going to any website except for non audio related pleasure.Your warranty is voided period.My liability is releasd.Do not call or email me I am blocking you. You and God Garth make audio business sickening! post all day if that what suits you. Your attacks are not valid or credible.Good day Scott"
I wonder whose credibility is questionable here. And if you think
you can get rid of me that easily, you are wrong. I want my money
back for this cord and I might sue your ass off for marketing and
selling a cord which is not legal (no ground connection).
Then sue Sony, Toshiba, Yamaha, Marantz, while you are at it.You are just plain trouble.If you would have bought from a credible dealer and sent the cord back.As was agreed by you. I could of determined if one of my new guys cut corners whom I had to let go. Or if you got a ces proto.Since Garth I guess we will never know.From what I hear you barely paid 1/3 of retail.....Grounds are not mandated!Are you taking a bath and holding the cord at the same time?We offer grounded and ungrounded.We only vacuum the interconnects!Where do you see all this stuff where do you see a Fatman silver??????????Last post.....WSH @ EGA the proof is in the listening......
Electraglide has made sure nobody would open their cords partly
because of the high price and also because they claim that there
is vacum dielectric.
Could you let me have the name and source of the high quality schuko plugs?Also, are you aware of any high quality schuko wall sockets? All I can seem to find are the Baumarkt specials with nasty push-in connectors suitable for 1.5MM2 cable.
Thanks in advance
Steve
So you opened up the goose that lays golden eggs and found only blood and guts? Surprise. Old story. I own two of these cords, they perform as advertised, and I couldn't be happier. I'm getting golden eggs. Did you try out this cord to see if despite its perhaps deceptively simple and -- at least to you -- disappointing interior, it did in fact produce gold? How about Roy? Is he happy?
I haven`t heard the cord since it is not sold in my country and it
arrived with a US-wallplug and I need a Schuko. This is also the
reason why I shipped the cord to Garth. Electraglide offered to
reterminate for $150,-. I found the price unacceptable.
I certainly don't dispute one's choice to pay another for their intellectual capital. Pecieved value is subjective call, and as adults, we should be able to make our own choices.
But I do have a question with regards to the Electraglide Power Cables. When one purchases a powercord with a 115v NEMA 3 prong plug and associated IEC connector, one naturally assumes those ground connections are in effect. I routinely check all 3 circuts with an ohmmeter. (and keep my only miswired H-N cord for checking lowest enclosure potential) And I know many audiophiles who routinely float their grounds, for sonic and noise reasons.
But I've not seen the lack of ground connection disclosed on the Electraglide website or in any reviews. Now it would be simple to provide such a connection with a single external wire longer than the H-N assembly and quick diconnect terminals. My questions are this -Is the lack of ground connection known to the consumers?
Given the potential dangers of the missing assumed ground connection, isn't it a requisite responsibility of the manufacturer to disclose this fact?There may well be valid technical and sonic reasons for this lack of grounding, but to discover this fact only after someone had surgically examined it is quite disconcerting.
No, I was not made aware of the missing ground connection.
It is illegal to sell any power cord intended for three-wire operation without the ground circuit intact. A company will open them selves up for a lawsuit if someone is killed or injured.
you bought them.One man's "deceptively simple" is another man's "smoke and mirrors".
Glad you like them.
I liked them before I bought them too, several weeks running. And if smoke and mirrors (which is what we always call stuff we can't explain, both the true and the false) can do what my Fat Boy Golds can do, bring on the smoke and mirrors. Did you try 'em out? Goddamn television and cell phones are smoke and mirrors too. Open 'em: where's the damn picture? where are the words? I apologize for being so condescending; but if these cords sound as good as mine do, I say the burden of proof is on you, not on Scott Hall.I have auditioned several fine sounding cords, cones, floating discs, and fluids, most of whose performance I could not account for or begin to explain. (I'm dumber than most engineering-wise.) It would be reassuring, I grant you, if the explanations were at hand. They would add confidence to my beliefs which are now based entirely on experience. But. But I don't care how cheap, simple, smokey, or mirrorlike what's in Scott's cords is, SO LONG AS THEY DELIVER. Maybe I'm paying for his imagination and genius. I know one designer whose brilliance would fit into a very small box but he knows no one would buy it in a small box - they wouldn't believe it was worth what he charges. So it puts his brilliantly executed idea in a big box and we love it!
The point is not whether you "like" the cables in "your" system or if I have tried them in mine, I haven't by the way, but rather to point out the deceptive claims of the manufacturer along with the horrifically shoddy construction and faulty design of the product.No "sonic" results are worth the risk of using a faulty product nor does it justify selling $40 of off-the-shelf parts for $2500.
In Roy's case this particular model was supposed to be pure silver according to the product name label the manufacturer put on the product but it is in fact 100% copper which is not necessarily bad but certainly not silver. Nor is it polished, varnished, treated, vacuum encased etc. etc. as claimed at various times by the manufacturer.
I will listen to the cord when I get it back and compare it to the
Shunyata Research King Cobra v2 and some other high-end cord I have.
I will report my findings to this board. If the the results of the
comparison turn out to favor the Fatman, it says a lot about the
powercord business and also a lot about all the "Golden Ears" who
has raved about these cords.
If you are, you must have the all-copper version, which I haven't heard. Do let us know how it sounds compared to the King Cobra v.2, though. I find my all-silver Fatman gold 2000 to be exemplary on power-hungry component (my amp) but not optimal on on CDP, preamp, etc. The folklore is that King Cobra is better on digital and Electraglide better on amps (especially high power tube amp). Please do compare in different positions and let us know...
Yes, I am the Roy from above. I will let you know. But there really
isn`t a copper Fatman. Just a copper Fatboy according to EGs webpage.
Would someone with an original intact Electraglide powercord please take an ohmmeter and measure the resistance between the ground on the plug and the IEC connector? And please report back the results to the board?
TIA
I measured the Fatman before removing the NEMA plug. The owner said it had "huge" conductors (the painted PVC tubing) so I was naturally curious.This is a 6 foot, 1.8M cord and measured with the connectors intact 0.39-0.42 ohms. Another powercord which the manufacturer claims to be 12awg measures terminated 0.19 ohms however it is 1.5M long.
prior to your replacement of the plug? What was it?
I realize, you stated there was no connection, but it would be 'comforting' to have verification.
The ground connection between the plugs was (is) N/C. There was absolutely NOTHING connected to either ground prong on either connector.There is NO ground wire or shield. Just the two copper strips stuffed into the PVC tubes.
The copper strips are 0.1mm thick and 30mm wide. That's a cross section of 3mm2 which according to my wire conversion table is half way between 12 and 13awg so call it "12.5awg". This in turn was cut down to a "tongue" 4mm wide to attach to the connectors. That's .4mm2 or 21awg (I initially guessed 18awg).
Because the "real" Electraglide Fatman Gold 2000 comes in several flavors. The all-silver is the $2500 version, but they do have all-copper and half-silver versions at cheaper prices. As far as the construction, I don't think you can blankly attack Electraglide. I already knew that my Fatman Gold 2000 (all silver) uses pure silver ribbons isolated in "vacuum" dielectric (how much vacuum?), which is the main design feature. There's nothing wrong with this approach from design-perspective. It is also supposed to have "copper shield," which must be that "spray" onto the tubing. So what if it has no ground (and shield?). When I DIY, I often prefer the sound without shield or ground and actually float my other cords' grounds.Electraglide silver stuff is very expensive, I admit, and I do believe they are overpriced, which is why I would never pay retail for these. However, they CAN sound wonderful in sympathetic systems, and they should be judged against their peers. I have opened up a lot of expensive cords and cables in past just to find "ordinary" parts, far more ordinary than the Electraglide designs.
For those upset by this, go make yourself the Ubyte-2 Solo copper inductor DIY power cord (see Asylum review section). It'll light your fire!
The metal lable on the cable says Fatman 2000 Gold but there is no gold or silver to be found. There is also no vacuum. If there was a vacuum in the PVC tubes they would be pressed as flat as a board, no? The copper colored paint on the otherwise clear tubing is just for looks, it looks like a conductor with the black woven jacket covering it. Even if it "should" have some RFI/EMI shielding properties it is not connected to anything so it wouldn't work anyway.So what if it doesn't have a ground? Fine if you are making a cable for your own use but this is a commericially sold product and is flat out DEFECTIVE by elimination of the ground.
Hi, I have a question, do they tell you that there is no ground wire? This could be very dangerous, for the guy who has lifted other grounds and thinks that he has the safety of that ground." which is why I would never pay retail for these."
What kind of discount do you get, that makes all this acceptable?
Jeff
Very few high-end power cords are UL/CSA/VDE approved so beware of the dangers! Try to find a cable company that uses approved parts so at least it MAY be safe. A Shielded cord is best IMO and MUST use a full ground to be legal.
< >Hmmm, the 'Ultimate Power Cord' from GTT audio claims to be UL approved, yet doesn't have grounds for any item but the preamp (at least that's what I understood from speaking to GTT). They claim a high sound quality status, including mention that Chesky is using the cord and it sounds like the megabuck cables for around $50 or so.
GTT says the whole system will ground suffiently though the interconnects to the preamp. While I know that the equipment does ground out this way, I'm wondering if this is really safe or the best way to ground equipment coming with 3 prongs, yet dropping a ground on the plug in favor of the interconnects and preamp being the route to ground.
Could this possibly fry your other equipment, where it wouldn't otherwise get fried had the source component of the problem have its own direct ground on its own power cord? Or, create other other hazards? Maybe a dumb question, but I don't know everything.
I really shouldn't be posting here, but I have to jump in and ask a
question. This is not designed to spark controversy. Also, let it be
known that I do not support Electraglide in any way, and have never ever heard any of their stuff.My question is: Have you listened to the cable?
I mean, it is obviously a decent sounding cable b/c it gets great reviews. I will not argue with the quality workmanship issue. Only a few manufacturers out here really care about that enough to personally assure the quality of their products, and stand behind them all the way.
I understand you have an issue with the markup on the cable being very
exhorbitant, but think about this. We have been talking a bit about how people are. For some strange reason, when people get too much for too little money, they feel ripped off rather than rewarded. Now why the heck is that?Times may be changing though. With companies like Norh, and some others out there building good stuff for cheap, people are catching on slowly. But even then, you have a LOT of folks saying Norh stuff is crap, and they bash Norh, and Norh owners.
So there is a long way to go, but that's off the point.
My point is, why not charge that if they can get it? Also, I think EG, and some other cable companies which I won't mention by nameNBS, charge enough to where no one would dare take the cable apart.
Roy would have NEVER let you take his cable apart unless there was a
problem with it. It's a $2500 cable, and no one will go cutting on my
$2500 cable!!!!Just some food for discussion.
B
The reason I let Garth take this cord apart was because it was
terminated with a US-wallplug. I live in Norway and need a Schuko-
plug. Electraglide offered to reterminate for $150,-. I found this
price unacceptable.
No, I didn't listen to it and that's not the point.
Were the copper ribbons in the tubing two ribbons that were laminated or was there only one copper ribbon in each tube?If so, the inductance of this may be a bit high for such an expensive cable. The flat conductors will help with this, but ultimately, you need coupling to get really low inductance.
Sounds like your dealing with the wrong company. $75 to switch the ac plug is nonsense unless the actual ac plug costs the manufacture x-amount.E-mail for more info.
Alan
Very, very sad....if there's nothing proprietary in design and/or technique that Scott Hall adds to this cable.Word has it though, that Scott builds his cables (with the tubing), augmenting the design by creating a vacuum (i.e. sucking out the air) within the tube. If this is the case, and I hope it's not, then Roy will be getting back his Electroglide's without this feature, and these new cables will have even less value.
alan m. kafton
Just checked out their website at www.electraglideaudio.com. Interesting comments in the review section, paricularly from Michael Fremer. Also click on the link to "learn more about the people behind electraglide" - i don't get it.
Post this review on Audioreview.comMaybe you will save someone from else from being ripped off. I bet this is a common story in the cable business. This is the reason that audio cables are the perfect DIY project
How true! I have torn apart many so-called high-end audio cables only to find "Home Depot" parts within (even from the name brands). Lots of snake oil out there. There are many good products however. Names like Kimber, Cardas, Tara, and smaller companies like Pure Note, Silver Audio, etc. that offer real science and quality construction.
nt
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