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In Reply to: RE: Is 16 gauge speaker wite ok to use with my Merlin TSMBME posted by Dawnrazor on July 01, 2020 at 18:14:04
He's using a tube amp which means low damping factor. That means every peak and dip in the impedance curve will be reflected in the speakers response significantly, probably two peaks above and below the box resonance and at least one at the mid range crossover. Some may like this, which is their right, but the term fidelity is inappropriate in this case.
Follow Ups:
I know I saw his system. That said all I can tell you is that the bass usually tightens up with the thin magwire and the bass resolution increases. My velodyne sub and magnepans all got "faster and more defined" with the magwire. I certainly am not going to take the time to rewire a sub if its not going to help.
Anyhow those speakers reminded me of the magnepan in that the efficiency is about the same and they make a big deal of the rf networks. I did some diy rf networks on my mags with the magnet wire and it rocked.
Not sure what the big deal is in trying something. worse thing is the dude doesn't like it. But maybe just maybe he digs it. And really its just a test. One can add strands and dress things up and end up with something really special.
How many feet of thin wire probably thinner than 24g do you think his woofers have in the voice coil? I took a 16g wire and wrapped it around half my finger and it was about 2 ft. Bet he has more than 8ft in that voice coil guessing its over 30-40ft or more. So the question is where is the concern about the dampening factor there? Why would another 8 ft magically destroy things? Not to mention the wires in the inductors.
Look at the tiny wires in this Theil speaker (can't seem to find a merlin crossover)
Cut to razor sounding violins
"...the bass usually tightens up with the thin magwire and the bass resolution increases..."Subjectively, that's up to you. Objectively, the other way around. The resistance on the wire will decrease the amplifiers "hold" on the speaker and the bass response will be less controlled.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 07/19/20
The assumption is that the formula adequately describes what is going on. If that is the case than no one would ever hear the bass tighten up. But it does. And its not just me that hears the difference.
There is another theory of cables that predicts what I am hearing in the bass. Its obvious to anyone the difference in bass resolution.
Anyhow if you haven't tried it well then you won't know. Maybe this will get you to give it a go since it adequately describes what actually happens. Look at conclusion I for instance:
Cut to razor sounding violins
The hookup wire of the Theil look to be 18 AWG. Not so tiny, but that's not the point. Every bit of wire makes a difference, and rationalizing about the tiny wire of a voice coil (which is essentially a motor) has nothing to do with upstream wiring. Same thing goes for the wire of an inductor which does make a difference based on what gauge is implemented for any given application.
The magnet wire has a lot going for it, and it's why you like the way it sounds, but to say 24 AWG is all you need for a high-performance speaker cable application is something I can't agree with, even if I found good things to say about the way it sounds if I were to try such a small gauge conductor for a high-current application. I never meant to step on your post, and I'm glad you enjoy the 24 AWG wire, Dawnrazor.
Hey Duster,No worries dude. Its just audio. And I was just recommending the op try something. Not sure why everyone wigs out at the thought of actually trying things. Its the scientific types that should be all for that and ironically they are almost always the 1st to dismiss things because it doesn't jive with some textbook. Thats why one has to test things.
An example of this IIRC was carvers amazing sub or whatever he called it. I recall reading that basically it was just a mistake in inputting cabinet sizes in a modeller or something. A figure all the experts would never use because well "everyone" knows it won't work. Yet to his surprise, a small enclosure could work and the rest is history.
Yeah not having any kind of blood pressure issues and thanks for the kind words.
I would like to better understand why current is an issue. Like why 8 ft of 24g magnet wire is a problem between amps and speakers, but 50+ feet as a voice coil or an inductor suddenly is OK because its a "motor' now. Its possible I don't understand but I thought it was a circuit and the electrons flow through every thing in between the neg and pos terminals.
All I know is that I tried it and the bass is much cleaner and less bloated and that was on maggies and my sub.
Also it is more than just the gauge. the mag wire has little if any insulation and while you do need to keep it away from things like the floor and power cables and its not practical naked, its a solid test to see if it works in the system.
And did you see the 6 moons review of the 47 labs cable? Why would that even be a product and a great review if the gauge was an issue?
Anyhow getting rid of time smear IMHO is a game changer and the nice thing about magwire is that its cheap and if you want make something like a Nordost cable with it.
And from the sounds of it no one has even tried it. Tweaker will use 10g magwire but omg can't possibly TRY 24g. That does sound arrogant or at least dogmatic.
Maybe its just a Maggies and horn thing, but everyone says maggies need loads of current and my Halo A21s certainly are no slouch in that dept. But I recall getting great results with some Wharfdales my buddy owned when I made him some wire.
FWIW I think the most optimal cable is probably flat ribbons if the ribbon is thin and not too thick.
Anyhow I am going to check my blood pressure and celebrate the 4th.
The Pict above is how I made my 28g speaker wires sound way better :)
Cut to razor sounding violins
Edits: 07/04/20
Hi Dawnrazor,
When it comes to cabling, there's more than one way to skin a cat, so to speak. Some folks like copper, others like silver. Solid core or stranded. Unplated or plated. Numerous dielectrics and geometries to choose from. Same thing goes for vibration control methods, with so many options available to choose from. With strong opinions of my own, there are only so many options I'm willing to try for my own wants and needs, with a number of designs that are popular to some folks, that I'm simply not willing to explore for myself. I mostly keep quiet about my opinions of such things, out of respect towards others who enjoy and advocate matters I'm either not interested in, or have experience of and don't care for when implemented within my own particular audio systems, based on my own listening tastes. Sometimes my decisions are based on direct experience, other times they are based on cable philosophy developed over the test of time, which can be considered personal bias that every listener has a right to hold onto as a way to approach cabling and other audiophile devices they either choose to explore or simply ignore.
Again, I'm not saying that what you hear is not the most enjoyable way to experience audio for your own wants and needs, since there are a lot of things going for solid core magnet wire with an enamel dielectric; I get it. Adding more 24 AWG conductors within a bundle opens-up a can of worms when it comes to the cable resonance of litz wire, so using a single solid core wire with a low-mass dielectric that's smaller than 22-21 AWG with minimal skin effect to deal with is an attractive idea, and I think it's the primary reason why you enjoy the simple DIY build for your own wants and needs; I get it. I have nothing but respect for your right to have a personal approach to cabling, and I don't want to come across as being so critical of it that others should not try it for themselves, and make a decision based on personal evaluation, if that's what they are interested in doing. Audio cables tend to have compromises, with no standard offering that everyone can agree upon. Same thing goes for all of the different kinds of audio components to choose from. To each his own, and listeners should feel grateful that there are so many options that they can select for their own audiophile wants and needs.
BTW, what is the purpose of the thick outer layer implemented for the shotgun run? Is there a single 24 AWG wire per polarity involved in the design?
Best regards,
Duster
can you narrow this down & address the impedance issue of wire gauge from his 60W tube amplifiers with low damping being part of the reflected load it will 'see' in tandem with his Merlins? I believe that is the feedback the OP seeks.
I'm thinking that the heavier the gauge he can use in the 8' runs he referenced the better the overall synergy of speaker + cabling + OPT
your thoughts?
regards,
The OPs system involves both tube and solid state power amplification to choose from.
I would suggest Furez FZ124AS 12/4 bulk cable wired cross-connected with a star quad geometry if he just wants to choose an inexpensive option.
The Furez FZ124AS features a foamed/cellular dielectric and the stranded conductor features a coarser gauge core which affects both cable resonances and provides a firmer conductor bundle while still remaining very flexible, IMO.
It's the best inexpensive stranded speaker cable I've experienced.
See link:
sounds reasonable to me ...
regards,
Me too rv. 2x12AWG= 9AWG
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." Tweaker456
"Every bit of wire makes a difference" Excellent answer Duster as is so often the case. What better way to get my points across than for you to weigh in on the subject? Having you present my (our) point of view could, IMHO, have a potentially greater positive effect. After all, who am I. If I ruled the world I would wind voice coils of woofers with 10 gauge wire, or at least 12, if the laws of physics would allow. Tweaker456
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." Tweaker456
'If I ruled the world I would wind voice coils of woofers with 10 gauge wire'
good thing that you talked yourself out of going into business
or out of business
be well,
rivervalley, I have something for you over at jazz alley.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." Tweaker456
Edits: 07/03/20
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