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In Reply to: RE: carbon fiber in teflon posted by Duster on November 07, 2016 at 16:14:46
..just goes to show that resistance is not, in fact, a particularly important factor in line level interconnects. The reason is of course that a typical line level source has an output impedance usually from several tens of ohms to several hundred ohms.
This basically means it can be viewed as a voltage source with a series resistor (of the same value as the output impedance). So a little bit more resistance from an interconnect makes no difference.
Duster however is correct when he says you need a non-solder termination method. But from his pessimistic comment I suspect he's not tried either this experiment or any other CF interconnects.
Given how cheap the cost is, I'd say go for it. You might be surprised.
Follow Ups:
hey! you're the Madscientist in person!!
glad to see you here and thanks for your encouragement!!!
so, since you have a lot of expertise in soldering carbon fiber yourself,
what about giving me some hints? if that info is top secret you can always send
me a private email; promise to keep it secret!... :)
i was thinking of peeling a small peace of the end from teflon, then insert some sort
of copper coating, a small hood (like the ones i already saw in same power cords ends
before inserting them into the plugs screws), then soldering...
wadayathink?
Paco
My guess is that those wires will sound pretty sweet in the mids, have nice bass but likely be rolled off in the highs. I suspect that they will not be real tightly wound, and likely be pretty rough quality CF (I've not tried the ones you link to, but I've tried a lot of different types).
Doing the termination the by wrapping copper foil around and then compressing with a screw terminal will work reasonably well. But don't try soldering onto the copper - the heat from the soldering will easily damage the thin carbon fibers, so best to stick to screw termination when using this technique.
All I will say is that it took me a long time to find a way to terminate CF that is sonically transparent. But I think you will get pretty good results with this wire and technique, certainly for the cost. Do report back...
Both beautox and myself understand and clearly stated that carbon fiber as a material is not capable of a solder termination method. Your idea (as I understand it to be) about using a copper crimp sleeve before inserting the material into a set-screw connector slot would be a proper way to terminate a bundle of carbon fiber strands. But be aware that carbon fiber strands are toxic to breath, so wear a breathing mask while working with the material if you choose to use it for a DIY project.
I'm well aware of carbon fiber as a semiconductor, and its use for a limited amount of cable designs where the material is actually implemented as a primary/hybrid conductor for audio purposes. Resistance in terms of conductivity is a key factor regarding skin effect, and in this particular case it's important to note the way the carbon fibers are actually arranged within the stranded bundle of the non-audio product is an unknown factor. If carbon fiber as a primary conductor were a more promising material, cable designers/makers other than Van den Hul and scant others would opt for such as an effective primary conductor for audiophile purposes. I would rather be considered pessimistic in this case rather than be over-optimistic about the issue.
Duster, don't you think you might, just might, be a little dogmatic here?
Van den Hul is not at all the only manufacturer using carbon fiber for audiophile cables!
what about Stealthaudio, Audioquest, Xindak, and probably some others...
as for the Madscientist cables i read several very serious, prestigious reviews that
perhaps you should read as well to form a more balanced opinion; here are 2 of them:
http://www.monoandstereo.com/2016/03/madscientistaudio-hdc-digital-cable.html
http://www.monoandstereo.com/2016/09/mad-scientist-audio-heretical-plus.html
best, paco
Firstly, carbon is not what is normally thought of as a semiconductor.
Regarding skin effect: one of the big benfits of carbon is the skin effect, orlack thereof... the skin depth on carbon is huge, several inches at the top of the audio band. (Actually, the higher the resitivity of a material, the larger the skin depth). This actually means that silver has a smaller skin depth than copper, for example.
Skin depth in copper at 20khz is around 0.5mm so any conductor more than 1mm will notice the effect. With carbon fiber the depth at 20khz is several inches, much larger than any practical condutor.
But I wonder why you wade into debates like this where you are so clearly technically wrong, and lack experience. I could point you to reviews of carbon fiber cables where the reviewers were amazed but I doubt that would affect your clear bias in this case.
Surface resistance of a single conductor within a multi-stranded bundle affects cable resonances. Mitigation of any issue that contributes to conductor resonance is a key factor when choosing any cable for audio purposes.
> > Surface resistance of a single conductor within a multi-stranded bundle affects cable resonances.
Really? Where did you get that idea from? Unfortunately it does not make much sense...
Surface resistace? That's not a concept as such. Cable resonances? Do you mean mechanical or electrical? As far as I know this is BS so please provide some evidence like a link.
Let me now explain something that I think many folks misunderstand about skin effect. (Was that what you meant by 'surface resistance'?)
OK so if you have a multi strand conductor, it acts exactly like a solid core conductor for the purposes of skin effect. Even if the individual wires are INSULATED! (Before you scream Litz wire, hold on a sec).
The reason that skin effect acts like this is because it's an effect caused by fields - magnetic and electric fields due AC in the wires, so it does not care if the wire is multi or single stranded, or insulated..
So now, what about Litz wire? Isn't that individually stranded wires, all insulated? Well yes and no. Litz wire needs two things:
1) Individuially insulated strands
2) Special winding so that each strand spends equal amounts of time in the inside of the core, and on the outside. Only then is it proper Litz wire.
So you see, when talking about skin effect in multi-strand wire, the skin effect of a single conductor matters not at all. So that's why I call BS on your earlier statement. (Also because cables do not, on their own, resonate. They might as part of a system, but that has zilch to do with skin effect).
Back to carbon fiber - one big advantage I see if the lack of any skin effect in carbon conductors, and it doesn't matter if you are talking about a big carbon rod, or hundreds or thousands of tiny conductors making up a multi-strand wire. The reason for this is simply in the equations for skin depth - go calculate and you'll see I'm telling the truth.
Now one last thing I wanted to say to you Duster: I have personally tried many of your suggestions for cables, etc. I have to admit to being underwhelmed by most of them, but in particular by the interconnect suggestions I have heard. For example I have here sets of cables I made using VH-Audio Pulsar and V-Quad, both of which I find frankly boring and lacking in transparency and dynamics (there have been others that I have tried, but as I remember you stated that v-quad and v-twist were the among the best ICs you have heard).
So you see I have tried what you suggest, and have largely found it wanting. In comparison, I tried to contact you on more than one occasion to offer you interesting things to try, and you have never had the courtesy to even reply.
This is why I am less than impressed when you come barging into a thread spreading mis-information (eg implying that an increase in resistance will worsen skin effect, when in fact the precise opposite is the case). I do have at least the advantage of having spent many many hours working with carbon fibers.
If you like to know why there are not more audio cables made with them, I think it's more to do with their fragility, difficulty getting high quality fibers and the problems of termination rather than the fact they don't sound good.
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