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In Reply to: RE: REVIEW: Cardas Audio Golden Reference Speaker Cable Cable posted by Luminator on July 08, 2011 at 13:11:21
Great as always, Lummy!
Follow Ups:
While this is an older review, I appreciate the effort that goes into it (and the blog). Largely as a result of this review (and prior Cardas experience) I have been using Golden Ref speaker (single wire) as my primary reference for about six months.
As with most Cardas cables from the old lines that have now been phased out (Cross and Reference), I hear a slight congestion or lack of ultimate (see-through) transparency compared to some other cables, and I think the OP hears this more now as he writes in his Clear Beyond review. I find this more apparent with Cardas speaker cable than interconnects. It may be that the cold-forged spade connectors of the new Clear line are largely responsible for the improved clarity of the Clear. Some users have had their Golden Reference or Golden Presence speaker cables re-terminated with the cold-forged spades, and reported favorable results. At $600 for re-termination, it seems a good stop-gap for those not ready to pony up for Clear or Clear Beyond speaker.
Cardas cables are available with a larger, 9mm spade connector, which I have on my Gold Refs. These will fit the larger European binding posts on the old Sonus faber and JMlab/Focal and have more surface area for tightening the binding posts (mentioned in one of the blog posts). (I'm not sure if Sonus faber and Focal have now moved to 1/4" (6mm) binding posts with newer models.)
I have also been rotating through complete sets of Golden Reference, Golden Presence, and Neutral Reference interconnects with the Gold Ref speaker cables. I agree that the Gold Ref ICs are not neutral, while the Neutral Ref may be even more detailed than cables like AudioQuest Colorado. Golden Presence fits neatly in between, being more golden than Neutral Ref, and more neutral than Gold Ref. I will probably post full reviews of one, or all, of these old Reference line ICs once I have logged more listening time.
What gear is in your system? The Golden Reference was a fave by much of the Audio Press at one time.
I have sold a few of the cables listed below, which were used in a very long (more than a year-and-a-half) cable upgrade process, but I've taken copious notes. It takes a lot of time to identify character consistently, and even more time to determine whether you can live with the character. I find I cannot gauge equipment simply with a few reference tracks, but must live with it in daily use with a variety of source material to take its true measure. At this level, changing power cords makes almost as big a difference as changing interconnects, and necessitates continued listening to reconfirm impressions.
I used Neutral Reference speaker for years, but unfortunately did not have them in-house at the same time as the rest of the wire listed below, so have not compared Neutral Ref to Gold Ref speaker in the same system context. I also used Quadlink ICs for years (and posted a review here in 2009), and agree with Luminator's suggestion here that they are more neutral than not. Again, unfortunately, I sold the Quadlink, so have not done direct comparisons in the current system context, though I have an idea of how they stack up.
Anyway, for those who think Cardas Gold Ref ICs are not neutral (like Luminator and I), I suggest Neutral Ref and Gold Presence ICs will also work with Gold Ref speaker, with greater neutrality than some of the other Cardas ICs.
I am not trying to take away anything from the excellent review; rather to add to the community knowledge. Many have good systems built on older, but still relevant, gear; and I'm sure these discontinued (but in many cases, still available from some dealers as of this writing) Cardas products will remain in demand on the used market for some years to come.
Amplifier: Musical Fidelity A308cr (Recapped with Nichicon/Muse)
Preamplifier: Musical Fidelity A308cr; Musical Fidelity kW Phono
Source (CDP): Musical Fidelity A308cr
Source (Analog): Pro-Ject RPM 10.1 Evo, Ortofon 2M Black; Rega P25 with 24V motor upgrade, TTPSU, Ortofon 2M Bronze, Groovetracer Reference Subplatter & Acrylic Platter, JA Michell Technoarm; Tangospinner dual brass pulley and Opal clear silcone belts
Speakers: JMlab Electra 915.1
Interconnects: AudioQuest Columbia, AudioQuest Colorado, Cardas Neutral Reference, Cardas Golden Presence, Cardas Golden Reference
Speaker: AudioQuest Gibraltar, AudioQuest Volcano; Cardas Golden Reference (all single-wire)
Power: Signal Cable Magic Power, Cardas Quadlink, Cardas Cross, Cardas Golden
AQ Volcano is excellent! Let me know if you find another pair (8ft or longer).
I've owned two pair of Volcano over the years. Gold Ref speaker is on par. However, even as the better wire from each brand closer approximates neutrality, you still have a lot of the signature AudioQuest and Cardas sound.
Cardas , to my ears, is rolled off on top.
I understand your characterization, fantja, and don't dispute it. Of the old Cardas line, I think Neutral Reference are the least this way (speaker and IC), followed by Golden Presence (IC - haven't heard speaker), Quadlink (speaker and IC) and Gold Ref speaker (but not IC, which is decidedly dark). As I said, both brands retain their signature sound.
Cardas are also more mercurial. They take ages to break-in if you don't have a burn-in device. Break-in times vary depending on the cable model. Different models have different geometry and different levels and types of shielding. Golden Cross and Golden Presence seem to require the longest break-in.
Cardas may be more sensitive to environmental conditions (like late-night listening with less demands on the grid). They may also be sensitive to movement (installation), as Cardas alleges. There have been times when I listen to a Cardas wire, and can't stand it, and other times when it sounds like the best cable I've heard in my system, so I have concluded that there must be something else going on - mostly break-in - but some of these other factors, as well. I am sorry to the extent that any of this sounds mystical, but that's what my listening experience suggests.
At any rate, Cardas will not be for all tastes.
Fantja....in MY system Cardas has a definite sonic signature....not only rolled off, but very grainy, closed in, 1 dimensional as well.
SgreenP, I understand your observations, as well. What some people hear as "grain", others hear as "atmosphere". Cardas' atmosphere do a good job presenting a palpable acoustic, but others hear this as too much grain, and/or a lack of transparency.
If you are in a large space, like a concert hall or a church sanctuary, listen to the sound of the building, and then the sound of voices or instruments traveling in the space. Living in Chicago, I sometimes hear live unamplified music in large open spaces, such as the Daley Plaza. I submit that these examples of "live" sound are not as transparent or crystalline as what a lot of listeners look for, or prefer. I am not arguing right or wrong, or saying that Cardas is not a good match for your system. Rather, I am trying honestly to address why two listeners can come at the same set of cables (or any piece of gear) and reach different conclusions.
Some listeners look for things in home reproduction that enhance the listening experience in the absence of visual cues. Others like gear to lay bare the composition of musical pieces, such as how jazz musicians play off each other, or how a composer employs counterpoint. Ultimately, it is about musical communication. What improves our understanding of the music, and enhances our relationship to it? I do these things myself. These are not wrong choices. We want the best of all possible worlds in home playback, but we all make choices based on budget and tastes.
The only comment I don't get is one-dimensional, as Cardas are generally regarded as having a generous, even sometimes overblown, soundstage. But, obviously, I can't say they don't sound that way in your system!
Everyone hears differently....I am a pro musician...have been listening to real instruments in real space for about 50 years...Cardas doesn't make it for ME.....(by the way...that's true for all their offerings..heard them all. Colleen Cardas and I went round and round with this)
Yes, Cardas argue that they spent a lot of time listening to live music in the design (voicing) of their cables. You are right that we all hear differently, or at least prioritize different aspects of live sound, and thus look for different things. Gear-matching - achieving synergy - is also important.Pierre Sprey, of Omega Mikro and Mapleshade, obviously spends a lot of time listening to live music, as well. His products offer what I analogize to race car performance. The designs and the sound are stripped down, tweaky (esp. Omega Mikro), but offer great dynamics, leading edge definition, sharp transients, immediacy, impact, etc. They sound very different from Cardas and AudioQuest, but someone who values that sound will have a very hard time finding better at the price of the Mapleshade products.
Anyway, people like George Cardas and Pierre Sprey both listen to a lot of live music, yet design very different cables! I am not going to say one is right and the other wrong. I hear the faults of Cardas, too. In my reviews, I try to point out the good and the bad, and why I reach a certain value judgment, as well as why others may feel differently. I think Luminator does that in his reviews, as well.
I guess I revived this old post a little. The community here is important, and I've found a lot of info on the Asylum that I haven't found elsewhere. I think this Golden Reference speaker review is more insightful than the professional reviews I've seen, as one example. Thanks for sharing, all!
Edits: 01/05/17 01/05/17
Thanks! for sharing- guys,
good to read that others feel the same way.
You have a very nice system- readargos.
I like that MF A308 stack (pre,power,cdp).
The preamp and power amp won a couple product of the year awards when they came out, while the CD player was compared to the dCS for its soundstaging capability. New capacitors in the amp, which needed replacing anyway, ameliorated a slight tendency toward brightness.
Tastes vary, but Musical Fidelity had a great run from the NuVista gear of 1999 through the Titan in 2009. They haven't gotten as much good press recently.
Was wondering where you got your MF recapped. I'm currently using a NuVista CD and an A300cr power amp ... the amp may need recapping at some point and I was looking for a source. Oh, and I'm using GR speaker and ICs, and really dig the sound.
I used Deltronics in Chicago. They did quality work. Amp returned in same condition as when I dropped it off.
You can always try calling or emailing the the North American/US importer to find an authorized (or recommended) repair shop in your area. Audio Plus Services is the US importer as of this writing, Plurison for Cananda.
Was wondering where you got your MF recapped. I'm currently using a NuVista CD and an A300cr power amp ... the amp may need recapping at some point and I was looking for a source. Oh, and I'm using GR speaker and ICs, and really dog the sound.
...who communicate with me on the side, and post replies to any of my AA reviews.
I may or may not have mentioned that, if I neglect to bring a camera with me when I audition gear, there won't be any pictures. Indeed, when it came to the Cardas Golden Reference, I must have seen (and used) 8 different samples. Of these 8, I only got to photograph 2. And if I didn't photograph those 6 samples, that also means I didn't photograph the myriad gear used with those 6. Despite not having any photos, using multiple samples with tens of components and other cables is how a responsible reviewer, user, or shopper determines what the Golden Reference's true character is.
Yep, that new Whitesnake album, Forevermore , could fit in with any of the band's 1980s albums. And, back by popular demand, here is that 1989 photo of my wife in her Whitesnake shirt:
Yep, check out those posters. And on top of the dresser is my old Sony receiver.
The audiophiles love this one, circa August 1991:
Check out the Metallica, Megadeth, and Dokken t-shirts. Fuck yeah!
In this review of the Cardas Golden Reference speaker cable, I centered it on my time at UC Santa Cruz. Well, I actually found this:
It's from my junior year, 1991-2, in front of my apartment. Check out the Slayer and Poison t-shirts. If and when I write my next review, maybe I'll talk about the gals in the building below us. They would...
Sorry, Next Time,
-Lummy The Loch Monster
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