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in the diy silver non teflon sept 26 post robert mentioned running the signal/return of interconnect wire in opposite directions in relation to how it comes of the spool(sorry for the awarkward phrasing hope makes some sense)hmm/why what difference does this make?more important when you use silver? does it break in quicker?since this is so easy to do what sort of improvement/how compare not doing it opposite.did i miss/or misintpret something???doubt i heard about this before/any help please.....
Follow Ups:
I don't know what he had in mind, but I did follow rcrump's and John's advise. I do know that wire has a direction which sounds the best. A few people do listen to a piece of wire from a spool, installed backwards and forwards, and then mark the spool for the direction which sounds the best.
Now, I did run the hot one way and the ground the other. So now, the exact same "wire sound" is being used for the hot and ground. But this only makes sense to me, if the wire was checked for direction before I made the cable. I did NOT check my wire, as I find this a bit obsessive. But, I could have still checked the wire after the cable was made. Hooking the IC up one way might produce a slightly poorer sound than the other direction. But again, I did not check this. I am burn out on checking, and have found it to be too hard to do correctly.
All I did was make the IC up as per Chris VH's instruction, and hook it up. I am breaking it in right now. This cable replaced a Discovery Signature IC($450/meter). Right now, the sound is far less bright and nasty than I thought it would be. The treble is a bit splashy, and the bass is a bit light. But, I can already hear some magic! The sound is quicker, cleaner, smooooth, and is far less veiled. It sounds like a wet blanket was remove from my speakers. I will continue to break them in with a high level signal for a couple of weeks. Thank to everyone for the great advice! Best Wishes, Greg R.
Solid core wire is extremely directional so just mark the end with some masking tape as it comes off the spool. Orient the wires so you have piece of masking tape at either end and terminate the wires. Throw it on a MOBIE or whatever overnight and then listen to it noting which way gives the highest image height. This is the correct orientation.If you run the signal and return wires in the same direction you will end up with hot spots in the stage, normally at or close to the speakers, low image height and have a gaping hole in the middle of the stage...Keep in mind I am referring to the sound of the stage (reflections) not the individual instruments spread across the stage....Interconnects or speaker wires that have pianos wandering all over the stage normally have their signal and return going in the same direction....
I'm right on the verge of building the 89259 twisted pair IC's. Should I reverse the direction of one lead?
I wouldn't bank on stranded wire to have anything like the directional properties that solid core does keeping in mind you are looking at multiple small gauge solid core wires in one jacket....If you want to know for sure send Belden an email and they can advise how this is put together.....
Are there any reasons that sold core has directional properties? I mean, audio is an ac signal, so that current is going back and forth through the wire in both directions anyway.thanks
steve
Steve, I don't want to speculate why wire is directional, but it is as poor Greg has found in a later post....I spent about three months playing with such things before I released my commercial interconnects and speaker wire and went about as crazy as Greg is going right now and can't tell you how much wire I trashed as I forgot to mark it with some masking take as I took it off the spool....Directionality in wire will be measured some day as it appears to be an FM distortion and wandering pianos (small phase changes with frequency) will be a thing of the past. Until then use your ears to discern directionality of wire. Stranded wire likely suffers from a lack of focus compared to solid core as some of the strands go one way and some the other, but this is pure speculation on my part.....Just enjoy the ride!
Yes, this has freaked me out! I was just a couple of hours away from making a big mistake, and am lucky I was able to learn this in the nick of time. But, as I was saying below, what are people to do now that they have already made up their ICs without running the hot one way and the ground the other way? And what do I do with my small pieces of wire which I didn't mark? I hate to be obsessive about this, but you know how us "nuts" can worry over the small things. Ignorance is bliss!
As to why the wire is directional, I will take a stupid guess and say that, when the wire is first being made or drawn, the structure of the wire is being aligned in one direction more than it is in the other direction. The electrons have to fight their way along the wrong direction, and have an easy path going the right way. When electrons hit impurities(lead/zinc ect) or structures that are not aligned, refections and phase problems arise. Maybe small pockets of standing waves are formed.(I bet John R. or John C. could say this much better!)
We'll, I warned you this may be a stupid guess! Regards, Greg R.
Greg, your explanation of the reasons for directionality are as good as any other...Nobody knows for certain.....I figure in a few years someone will have a $30. meter to tell you the grain orientation of the wire, but in the meantime just use your ears.....I do pay a bit extra to have the directionality documented as swapped for signal and return on my commercial interconnects and really didn't think this was anything new when I posted it here. I have been using Wonder Wire forever and they have mentioned this phenomenon in their installation instructions for at least fifteen years.....
seems essential mr.crump. four the 17th million time we're glad your here.they should add this one to the "text books".....
Glad I could help! I think once that there are definitive FM measurements available on wire that this swapping ends will become clear, but in the meantime building wire is an artform once you get beyond the simple measurements such as inductance, capacitance and resistance....Jon Risch posted a bibliography recently and I noticed that some folks are doing some FM measurements trying to get a handle on some of the effects that are easily heard in a good system....My partner, John Curl, has a wonderful bench and can measure down to one part in a million as respects AM measurements, but it is obvious that we are measuring the wrong things as respects wire. These are exciting times and the music will be better served once we can measure these effects that are so easily heard.....In the meantime enjoy your project and note that some of the cost of the commercial interconnects went into a lot of time spent listening to different permutations...
Thanks, I agree with your view on this.
I just reversed the ICs and the image height did seem a bit lower. Most everything else also sounded worse, and it seems like I had lost some smoothness and the overnight break-in period.
This may have been due to:
#1)the wire direction makes a difference, or
#2)the way the cable was broken in overnight in one direction.
I think both #1 and #2.
I don't know exactly why they sound a tiny bit better in one direction, but one thing I do know for sure. I am very thankful for all the good advise, as these IC's sound very clean and vivid, with a dynamic smooth sound. I feel alot closer to the music. One of the things I like the most is the way drum whacks and rim shots are propelled at me. It's so unrestrained and vivid, it actually makes me blink, or cringe! Not bad for $30 IC's! I would recommend people to pause and think about this, before laying down some big bucks for some factory made IC's.
I'm already looking forward to my next project, the "Bus Mechanic" speaker wire. ;~) Best Wishes, Greg R.
Greg, nice to see some folks are getting their hands dirty.... It is very frustrating to find results like this for so many as you just can't measure these effects....As you advised you sure can hear it and that is the bottom line.....Be sure to use a MOBIE or something similar to treat the interconnects or the interconnects will not perform as well as they could.
Just think of all the people who have already made their IC's up, and didn't run the hot and ground in opposite directions. I can imagine them sitting there listening to the music and thinking;
"Damn, which way did I pull that wire off the spool? I think I ran the hot and ground in the same direction, but I'm not sure."
"So what do I do now, junk all the wire and start all over again with new wire that's marked for direction?"
"Does my soundstage have hot spots, and do the images seem to wonder about for no reason?" "Am I losing my mind?"
This sounds funny, but could also be very painful for some.
I don't worry too much as I only made one IC up, and it's done right thanks to Bob and John. BUT, I did just do something very stupid. I wanted a 16g silver wire, so I took a bare 22g wire bent or doubled it over, and shoved it into a 14g teflon tube. Doh!!! Now I have both the wires running in the opposite direction in the same tube. What does this sound like? Fortunately, I was able to pull them out, and turn one wire around and shove them both back in.
Also, as a test, I made up a short IC and DID NOT reverse the hot and ground. Guess what? It sounds OK, but I noticed the imageing was out of focus. It sounded like there was a "lobeing or comb filter" problem with my speakers image. Everytime I moved my head a bit, the image or instraments, would wonder around in a confused fashion. What's worse, I have a few short pieces of wire that are all mixed up, so I don't know which way is which. So now, I do not want to use them! Color me freaked! Regards, Greg R.
taking notes and trying to absorb/thanks best wishes greg!!!wet blankets are as evil a menace as bad ac/ha ha....
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