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First of all, let me start off by making the standard disclaimers. This test was done using my computer room system. Components used are listed below. Opinions and observations pertain strictly to this system and my personal tastes. This means that results will vary from system to system and is very likely to be influenced by personal tastes. If my results don't agree with yours, please don't take it personally. There were more than a few outside comments from my brother and girlfriend while running some of the various cables. While these were "unsolicited" from them at the time, they pretty much coincided with what i was also thinking.CD: CAL Delta Transport / Mod Squad Wonder Link / CAL Sigma DAC
Tuner: Musical Fidelity E-50
Preamp: AGI 511A w / Burr-Brown option
Amp: Forte' 6A (375 wpc @ 4 ohms )
Speakers: Ohm F's w / Axon binding posts & Michael Percy Spikes
Interconnects: JR's SSTP (solid / stranded twisted pair design)I did not play any vinyl or cassettes while doing this, so i didn't bother to list those components.
Music listened to varied from the lounge lizard sounds of Diana Krall to the electronica of Gary Numan to the classical sounds of Prokofiev to the pounding death metal of Master and the acoustic new age sounds of Ian Anderson's last solo disc. Since different styles of music tend to highlight various frequency ranges, i tried to give all the cables a well rounded diet before their examination. All were burned for several days of continuous use with the Oval 9's receiving 500+ hours of break in time since they were the only cables purchased brand new.
Here's a little background on the situation. My house has a basement foundation. The suspended wooden floor gave me a very hard time with bass reproduction. This system could easily shake the entire house if cranked up, even though the speakers are probably about 82 - 83 db's efficient and do not "rock". Removing the speakers factory platform from the base and installing the spikes obtained from Michael Percy made a huge difference. Bass was much tighter with better pitch and definition. Slam and impact both improved while the reduction in floor borne rumble was extremely noticeable. Nonetheless, the system still had a tendency to lean towards the warm side. This did not bother me and the slightly fuller sound was actually kind of nice, as i typically listen to this later at night and at lower volumes while my girlfriend is sleeping.
I was using some modified XLO Pro 650 cable in this system before doing this shoot-out. This cable started off as 18 twenty gauge conductors of stranded wire broken down into 9 conductors per polarity giving us appr. two 11 gauge wires. Suffice it to say that it was kind of a cross between Chris' CAT 5 design and the Kimber type woven braid by the time i was done with it.
Initial impressions were of a pretty well balanced system that sounded quite musical. Frequency response was pretty linear thoughout the range with a bass maximum at appr. 35 Hz and solid treble response up to 15 Khz and rolling off after that. Bass had good initial impact but would ring if driven hard. As the volume went up to higher levels ( 95 db's average @ 8' ), bass would get looser due to the undamped mass of the cone. Soundstage was wide and deep but lacked pinpoint imaging. This is to be expected with the F's 360* radiation pattern though. Midrange and treble were relatively smooth, but lacked detail. While most would consider some of these things as "sins of omission", the errors comitted were those that were of the "less offensive" category. Overall, i could listen to this system as it was with no major complaints even though it did have it's weak points. Quite honestly, i thought i should have stopped playing games with wire and components a while ago, but i'm glad that i did do this test.
I went from the XLO's to the AP Oval 9's. I was warned by Corey at Audio Advisor that these cables required a LOT of burn in time and initially sounded poor right out of the box. He was right. When they went into the system, the bass disappeared and the treble stuck out like a sore thumb. Besides the tonal balance becoming totally skewed, the treble was extremely hard and smeary. I noticed some major changes after appr. 150 - 175 hours of playing time and then again at about 250 hrs or so. As mentioned earlier, i gave them a very fair listening period of well over 500 hours before passing final judgement on them. When all was said and done, i found these cables very intriguing but quite lacking overall. As mentioned before, the tonal balance never did even out completely. Bass did pick up more weight to it, but the treble was still hard and glaring to the point of being overtly "tizzy". Having to deal with this is one thing, but the fact that it was also much louder than the other ranges of the frequency spectrum really made it noticeable. It was kind of like ramming barbed wire into your ear, over and over and over again. There also seemed to be a series of small amplitude peaks and dips within the midrange, most noticeably between appr. 200 Hz and 2 Khz. This took away from the clarity of and naturalness of voices and several instruments within that range. My brother and i could never really put a finger on what was taking place there. Bass and transient response. Now that's a good one on these cables. It's what really has me puzzled. The "finger snaps" on the Diana Krall CD sounded the sharpest on this cable. This shows that the cable is capable of excellent transient response and allow the amp to minimize overshoot and ringing of the driver. I think the fact that it is such a large conductor helps in this area. As further proof of this, the bass that these cables offered was EXTREMELY tight and well defined. Probably the best of the bunch. My amp was able to "grip" the mass of the large Walsh driver and keep it under utter control. The problem was that, while the bass was of excellent quality, there just wasn't near enough of it. This kept making me want to crank the power up more and more, hoping that it would fill out the sound sooner or later. Never happened. Due to the lack of bass output which reduced the amount of "throw" that the Walsh had to make, i could easily crank the volume level control measurably higher with these cables than i could with any others used during this test. Besides all of that, the soundstage was nowhere near as full sounding as what i was used to. I couldn't get the floor to resonate if i tried with these. Overall, i found them to be hard and thin sounding in my system with a poor soundstage. I will say that it is very flexible for it's gauge and size and would give no hassles when trying to install it.
From the Oval 9's, i went to some Goertz MI-2's. Since my specific amp would oscillate with their high capacitance design, i had to install a Zobel network at the speaker. Once this was done, i hooked the MI-2's into the system. WOOOOOOOOOOOW. What a difference. I had bass again. And smoother, more liquid midrange. And treble that offered far more shimmer instead of smear. And a soundstage with an ever expanding width and depth. and...... I think you get the idea. The Goertz was a far better balanced cable in this system. It did almost everything MILES better. While the bass wasn't quite as tight as the AP Oval 9's, it's level was far more even with the rest of the frequency range. Due to the expansive soundstage and more linear frequency response throughout the midrange, music was instantly more open, liquid and real. I had never heard this system sound so good. While my girlfiend wasn't home when i did the AP to the Goertz cable swap, she did come home just a short while after that. Within appr. 15 minutes of her return, she asked what i did to the stereo. I asked why ? Her reply was " it sounds SOOOOOO much better". Nuff said ?
I really didn't want to, but i did take the Goertz out of system. Due to the similarly high capacitance levels, i left the Zobels in the circuit. In their place went a set of Teflon CAT 5 cables that a fellow inmate ( Hello Ashis !!! ) initially made and i purchased from him. They were constructed as per Chris' 27 pair instructions and gave me an idea of what a full blown pair of these look like. While i have made a few "cheater" cables like this, all i can say is that you guys MUST have patience AND real sore fingers. Since Ashis was using these bare-ended, i installed some XLO spades on one end and some Axon's on the other. The different sized spades help me keep track of which end is which.
My initial impressions going from the Goertz to the CAT 5 cables were as follows. Bass was stronger and offered more extreme bottom end to it. Upper bass was a little lean while the midrange seemed slightly recessed, not as clear, liquid or open sounding compared to the Goertz. Treble was also softer, but offered better detail with a little less ringing to it. As previously mentioned by several folks here on the Asylum and in other places, small gauge solid wires can't be beat for high frequency reproduction. The soundstage was solid with reasonable width and depth.
Quite honestly, i was expecting these to sound a little more "open" and slightly leaner on the extreme bottom end than they did. I was basing this on the "cheater" CAT 5's that we had built for my brothers system. Nonetheless, they performed very well for the cost involved and would perform excellently in a system that was well balanced but slightly lacking in the last octave or two.
Just to keep things straight and retain my baseline, i installed the modified XLO's that i started off with back into the system. They now sounded slightly veiled with less detail throughout the entire range. Mind you, it wasn't bad at all, but i had now tasted the steak that was hiding within this system when it was serving me hamburger before. Then again, these cables run appr. $3.00 per foot, so it is in a completely different price league compared to most of the other competition. Soundstage was quite good and would compete with any of the others outside of the Goertz in that respect.
Out came the XLO's again and in went the Kimber 8TC's. Initially, i noticed a small problem with sibilance. Bass was solid and well extended. It did not have the ultra extended weight of the CAT 5's or the super tightness of the AP Oval 9's, but was running pretty close with the Goertz. I would have to say that the Goertz had a slightly more "lush" bass to it ( not that it was sloppy at all ) while the Kimber was a little quicker, more defined but slightly less full. Midrange was relatively smooth and open although it didn't seem quite as much of a soundstage that the Goertz offered. After it "played in" a while, the treble smoothed out noticeably. Treble was somewhere between the Goertz and the CAT 5 cables in terms of clarity and detail. I would say that it was probably a hair cleaner than the MI-2's in that respect, but not by a whole bunch.
For those that have never tried these cables in your system but are familiar with Kimber's 4 or 8 PR series, the TC cables are far smoother and offer much better tonal balance. The PR's came across as being kind of thin and "zippy" sounding. While that may not be bad for an overtly dry or bloated sounding system, the TC's really do present a far more natual picture. The sound is not nearly as etched and offers better harmonic structure to it.
I went back and stuck the AP Oval 9's back into the system. Same impressions as when i first listened to them. They came back out a few hours later. I got tired of listening to smeared cymbals with music underneath them.
To sum things up, here's a brief summary as to how i would rank these cables IN THIS SYSTEM:
(1) Goertz MI-2's. These were the most musical. Full-bodied yet very open sounding to me. They were also the most involving. This is not to mention the all enveloping soundstage.
(2) Kimber 8TC. Well balanced throughout their entire range. Not quite as full bodied or enticing musically as the Goertz, probably due to their slightly leaner presentation and smaller soundstage.
(3) Chris VH's CAT 5. Very solid performer in every aspect with the cleanest treble response. It's extended bass output actually hurt it in this specific system, as i was already having problems with bottom octave resonances in this installation.
(4) Modified XLO Pro 650F's. Not as revealing or detailed as any of the others, but never made offensive contributions to the signal. Soundstage was also quite solid.
(5) Analysis Plus Oval 9's. (I can already hear the flamethrower posts sizzling ) Sorry folks, but these just didn't hack it in this system. While it did have some individually strong performance points to it, the entire presentation was lacking as a whole. I found it annoying and strident to listen to and am actually amazed that i left it in as long as i did. I also tried them in another system ( which is VERY different ) and had similar results. I would rather use standard fine strand 12 gauge zip cord. I guess that they just aren't for me.
As mentioned above, the cables are but a PART of the system. Taking that into account, you really have to interpret their performance on an individual basis with each installation and NOT as having the same characteristics EVERY time. What works well in one place might bomb horribly in another. That's the reason why we try and stress home demo-ing equipment with your other gear and looking at the whole system as a package, not as an assembly of individual pieces. Sean
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Follow Ups:
Thanks for providing the information! I'll be using this in the near future!-- Greg
that as we all stress here, every system is different and YMMV ( Your Mileage May Vary ). Sean
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Try before you buy! Gottcha! (nt)
I use Kimber 4TC currently and have been considering going to 8TC.
You just gave me more reason to do so.Great post.
Mike
Hi Mike,I somehow lucked into buying 4TC years ago without trying other brands. 4TC is a very open, clean, and lively cable...maybe too much so...it depends on your system and tastes...but I really treasure it and consider it an outstanding cable. I recently tried out 8TC factory terminated with WBT-0645's (angled bananas) and was dissapointed in comparison to 4TC. The sound was "slower", bass was actually reduced, much reduced (contrary to what I would have assumed....4TC is only 13 guage vs. 9 guage)with less snap, and the palpability of instruments was also diminished. It is a smoother sounding cable if your tastes lean that way....everthing is "mellower". Mellow to me is boring. I also tried a friend Tara Labs and it sounded much the same. These comments are using a 4B-ST, Magnepan 2.5R's, and 12 ft. speaker cable runs with kimber I/C's (ss). A single run of 8TC used to bi-wire sounds more like 4TC from what I've gleaned from a few internet comments.
Regards
I have some 4TC's but have never put them into that system. I would have to assume that the biggest improvement would be greater bass impact with a slightly fuller sound overall. If your speakers can be bi-wired and you can swing it, i would keep the 4's for the mid - hi section and run the 8's for the bottom end. Sean
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I went from Hitachi LC-OFC, a cable that my speakers had been designed to work with, to 8TC biwire and the improvement in definition, soundstaging and general air was incredible.Another point; most of my system uses Kimber I/Cs, either PBJ or KCAG, and the the synergy of the front-to-back wiring is significant.
You'd probably get 99% of the results with 8TC/4TC combinations, so that's definitely worth trying.
In my system, for my tastes, a Kimber 8TC with WBT and Kimber Postmaster connectors was bettered by a DIY Belden 89259 twisted coax pair, with crimped RS gold spades.
The Belden is VERY clean, its treble reminds me of electrostatic speakers or the Magnepan ribbon tweeter.
Bass is firm but may be the weak point IMS, as compared to Kimber.
The Belden's soundstaging and transparency are to die for.Kimber 8TC has one strong point, outstanding bass tightness, however its midrange sounded somewhat confused / phasey in my setup (see systems).
I am sure I am not listening to the Belden offsetting some defficiency in my rig...the Belden is plainly better in qualitative terms, in addition to the subtle frequency response changes. Its midrange and treble are cleaner and better articulated than the Kimber.
For example, when playing a record with piano and guitar (Jim Hall - Ballad Essential - way recommended!), the Belden cable better differentiates the musical lines between piano and guitar. OTOH, Kimber 8TC presents a deeper, more homogenized stage.
Your mileage may vary.
Just adding my 2 cents...
Cool. Thanks for jumping in and adding this info Carlos. Maybe i'll do a set of these and see what i think. Doing a set of cross-connected quad 89259 should alleviate the thinner bass due to offering a larger conductor with lower resistance. Sean
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Hi, Sean;
I found out that 89259's qualities are not highly dependent on geometry: a cross-connected pair has less indutance and improved treble response, however, a paralell pair has smoother treble (IMS) AND retains the outstanding midrange / soundstaging.I haven't made any Belden quad connected cables yet. As an experiment, I tried several configurations with some Monster M1 speaker cable that was available. Keep in mind that my speakers impedance is 4 ohms with a dip to 2 ohms, therefore they are highly sensitive to speaker wires resistance. My findings are:
Standard 6' M1 cable with PVC jacket: YUCK, muddy, undiferentiated sound, slow bass, sibilant treble, OK midrange (that's why I started fiddling around).
Removed PVC jacket and internal filler, twisted internal wires (two spirals per foot), re-terminated with RS spades: much improved bass, increased midrange projection, cleaned up the treble (though still some sibilance).
Separated the 2 wires by at least 4 inches ( as per Allen Wright's Super Cable Cookbook): WOW!, improved soundstaging, sibilance GONE, very mellow sound (tubey sound?), bass was a little less tight and tuneful than the previous version.
Made another pair, twisted together and quad-connected the 2 pair:
outstanding, tight, tuneful bass BUT it messed up the midrange (a NO NO in my book); treble was funny, too, it fizzled. The midrange recessed both in terms of soundstaging and dynamics (jazz singers did no more SHOUTING in my room).
As an attempt to fix the quad cable, I made several Zobel networks with different R-C values. No luck: IMS Zobels throw out the baby with the bathwater: treble is tamed, but there is a slight reduction of pace, dynamics and transients, which I did not like at all. BTW I made the Zobels with premium resistors, Wima, polypropilene or paper in oil caps, plus gold plated banana plugs. Resistors were 4-10 ohms and Cs .022uf - .1mfd.I also tried the zobels with Belden speaker cable, heard the same effects.
Throughout those experiments, the cable materials and connectors were the same, the only changes were insulation (removed) and different geometries.
So, what are the conclusions?
I think I will stay with a single pair of Belden and avoid high capacitance cables that require Zobels.
If I have some spare 89259, I may try the quad-cross cable in a rainy weekend, just for the fun of it...but I may not keep it.
Greetings
Carlos
It's good to see that I was not the only one to have a poor experience with these cables. I was impressed by the reviews and unique design of these reasonably priced cables, so I gave them a try.In my system the same thing happened, the highs were excessive and the bass was lean. After extensive break-in, the balance never really changed. The treble region was just much too prominant and bright sounding. I sent them back to AA and swapped them for the MIT 750 Plus cables and I am happy with them in my system.
I would have to say that of the cables I've used in the passed, the Analysis Plus are the most system dependent cables I've heard. In some systems they may sound right, but in my system they were completely incompatible.
Isn't this interesting. In my system I'd say that the treble was a bit soft/dark compared to AP'silver cable and the Harmonic Tech cables. I thought the bass response was one of the cables strongest attributes. Like I said in my review of the Oval 9's, "one size definitely does not fit all" when it comes to cables.Regards,
Stuart
The Goertz design really is something special. The cables that supplanted my Cat5's are based on the AG2 design, so I very much agree with your assesment vs. the Cat5's. I think perhaps it is also true that the Cat5's may have hurt themselves by their bass extension in your room setup.I tossed my 8TC's in a box in the basement after a side by side comparison with the Cat5's in my system- however my preferred listening setup was "near field", similar to the Audio Physic guideline. It basically takes the room out of the equation.
Could you please tell us what your room dimensions are, and how your speakers are set up in the room?
Thanks for sharing. :-)
Chris, the room is 15' wide by 13' deep with an 8 1/2' ceiling. The speakers are on the long wall spaced appr. 9' apart center to center. This leaves appr. 3' to each side wall and are pulled out appr. 2' from the back wall. Here's the "kicker" though. Behind the speakers is an open archway that is appr. 5' wide and 7 1/2' tall leading out into our living room. It is not exactly centrally located between them, but more towards the right speaker. On the wall behind my listening position to my right is another open archway of appr. 3' wide and 7' tall that leads into another room.While i know that neither the room or speaker placement is optimal, it was the best that i could do given the way that the room is layed out and the traffic pattern. I hope to be out of this location within the next year at most. Once resituated in a more permanent location, i'll be knocking down walls or building as needed. Sean
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Its pretty much system depedent! In my Plinius 8150i + Dynaudio Contour 1.1 set-up- the AP 9 were the cables that shined the system. Before this I had the MIT's Term4 and the VDH the Wind. Hands down it was the AP9.We tried the AP9 on my friends JM Lab speaker, it didn't sound as well as the MIt.
Take it for what its worth but nonetheless one should give them a try.
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