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I've been following with interest the stir the newer Panasonic receivers have been causing so it was really great recently to have a friend bring over an SA-XR50 he just purchased. We plugged it into my system which is made up of some newer speakers but some older pieces as well:Nakamichi CDP-2A
Primare P30 Preamp/Processor (Used for 2 channel bypass only)
Aragon 4004MKII
PSB Subwoofer 1 Dual 8" Stereo Passive Subwoofer (4ohm)
Von Schweikert VR-1 Monitors on VS Stands
Homegrown Audio Silver Lace Interconnects
Cheap 10/14 guage speaker wire
Panasonic DVD-RV31I have owned before the following equipment that I consider at least very good but not necessarily High-End (maybe by some):
Nad 3020e
Luxman R404
Philips CD-101
Nad 2200
Nad 2100
Nad 1700
Nad 2400
Adcom 535
Nakamichi TA3
Paradigm 5S
Kef 102 with cube
Spica TC-50 Velodyne ULD-12
Nuance 50
Nuance 440
Passive Preamp (Alps Black Beauty homemade)
Bought cd's from 82' on, only had about 40 LP'sRead on only if you're interested in a real-world comparison from just an average person who really enjoys music and likes to have it reproduced realistically in their home for the best price possible. I have never bought any gear that would be termed "High Ticket" items. I always found the most musical value with pieces like Paradigm, PSB, NAD, Adcom, Kef, Nuance (Early designs) etc., Only recently did I upgrade my system to the Aragon (bought used for a killer price)the Primare P30 (a gift from a very close friend) and the Von Schweikert VR-1's (the best speaker I have ever owned)
The SA-XR50 was fed via a cheap $25.00 toslink optical cable from Radio Shack via the DVR/VCR1 optical digital in from the DVD players' optical out. The SA-XR50 was 1st configured as follows:
Party Mode (SFC on)
Center (off)
Sub (off)
Main speakers (large)
Surround (on) -Hooked up PSB to these outputs (large)Result-Wow!-Here was a mass consumer receiver bought for $250.00 CDN (discounted)that was driving the VR-1's with control and clarity. But the subwoofer wasn't being driven very well off the surround terminals. So the vr-1's and sub were swapped so that the sub was on the main front channels-instantly more drive/bass and power. Ok now tried this-hooked up the VR-1's back up to the PSB high pass crossover. Now the SA-XR50 drove the entire setup effortlessly. Instantly found the sound of the SA-XR50 as being very dynamic,powerful,neutral, revealing and clear-just an overall clarity that was really quite unlike anything I have heard before. Ran the system like this for a better part of a day and then had another idea-Why not set the VR-1's to small (100hz filter built into the SA-XR50 was chosen) and then run the PSB Sub from the Aragon by feeding it a split mono signal from the sub out from the SA-XR50. The level of the sub can be controlled via the menu on the SA-XR50. A balanced level was achieved and I must say that this combination was quite something to my ears-An incredibly clear midband up from the VR-1's being fed by the digital amp and a big bold, warm enveloping bass from the the big boat anchor (Aragon). I did not have the Panasonic in the system very long before it had to go home to its owner. One thing for sure-this Panasonic will be visiting again unless I buy one first! In summary after this very brief meeting with this high tech Panny wonder I was left with a few impressions:
1. It is absolutely unbelievable how good it sounds for the money when fed a digital signal.
2. It defintely likes a more moderately efficent speaker (Did try the SA-XR50 on a speaker of 86db sensitivity with complex crossover (Winslow Burhoe designed Nuance 440) and it took alot more out of the receiver to get things cookin' vs the VR-1's (90db and PSB 88db)
3. These new products will really make you re-think about how to reconfigure your system for the best musically pleasing results. (ie SS vs Tube vs DIGITAL or combination thereof.
4. I will not be ruling out the possibility of using one of these "newer" digital receivers/amplifiers in the future in some sort of way.
5. I think the direct digital path may be the way to go for CD source as long as you are willing to accept the good with the bad as far as recordings go.What was really interesting though too after comparing the Panasonic to the analog Aragon/Primare/Nakamichi combination were the comments by my father-in law who is a retired music teacher/musician/ of more than 40 years who said: "I could easily get used to the sound of that Panasonic". An old Living Voice 1950's recording on CD he brought over was amazing sounding with the SA-XR50: Soundstage-wide, deep, great imaging, the list went on...
IMO there is no way there is a huge gap in the sound quality of this "cheap" mass piece of consumer gear vs the multi-thousand dollars worth of equipment that in my case comprised of Aragon/Primare/Nakamichi. Most people could buy this receiver, hook up sources via direct digital, buy a half decent pair of speakers that are reasonably easy to drive and pocket all the money they have saved to buy some awesome music or perhaps a pair of concert tickets to their see their favourite artist or band twice over or more.
My apologies for the longwinded post. I look forward to hearing others' experiences with these Panasonic receivers when introduced and compared with their better quality analog rigs. This new "flavour" of sound is quite something. I am going to do so more listening and comparisons hopefully very soon.
Oh, and FWIW the Panny was bone stock, cheap power cord and all and was listened to critically from the start. It gets better after burning in or modded?-Oh my.
Follow Ups:
Good assessment. I have the XR70, and power some Onix speakers which have an 88dB sensitivity and 6 Ohm nominal impedance which never dips below 4. I feel that the Panny gets congested at high levels (about -20), but makes a great small-medium room or apartment setup. This is using Stereo mode with no sub or surround channels, with all effects off, including the display (I believe this setup nets 0.09% distortion while multichannel does 0.9%).My reference pre/power setup uses an Audiolab 8000Q and Odyssey Audio Stratos Plus. Not the finest equipment, but certainly very good.
BTW, someone mentioned 4 Ohm speakers. If that is the nominal and not minimal rating, you will probably trip the internal protection circuit on the Panny. I'd be very curious to hear your results though.
-20 isn't bad, dang loud in 12 by 18 room. That's the loudest I get with the XR45 and 88db 8 ohm speakers.
::4 Ohm speakers:::
I drive 4 ohm Maggy MMGs (in stereo only) with my Panny. No problem ever. I have never tripped internal protection circuit.
THat is very good news indeed. I wonder if you're getting around 200-210W/channel out of it.
The link below is to a review of 3 recievers including the Panny XR50. It gives the power output into 4 Ohms in stereo.http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/as...17200314244.pdf
The link below is to a statement that the Panny XR25 will easily drive the MMGs. Scroll down to the Maggy MMG review.
http://www.donlindich.com/recommendedspeakers.html
I don't think that soundandvisionmag.com link is valid. If you can obtain the link, I would be very interested in seeing it. I checked equipment reports, but they only have three items listed. I did a search on their site for XR50 and nothing came up. I'm glad it works into 4 Ohms though.
I had a link to a review that tested the Panny XR50. At 4 Ohms it put out 160 Watts. I'll look and see if I can find it.
I drive a pair of Maggy MMGs in stereo. Awesome crisp and detailed sound but no one believes it can be so. That damn digital reciever is just too cheap.
bought sa-xr50 bought 2weeks ago. been on 24/7. in that time, less bright but was never piercing or hurtful on ears. my listen levels are low to med-low. but again, the mid range is tilted forward. this gives very clear sound but low-mid and subltety is non-existant. it is "in your face", all or nothing. a very electronic listen. it is amazing that they were able to give such clean sound without being piercing, even with speakers with a reputation for being very sensitive to hf (yamaha ns-1000's and energy veritas v2.3's). at higher volumes, this amp begins to sound compressed in the hf. this amp sounds best at very low volumes, where it is easily heard, yet the prominent mid is less noticable. this amp just doesnt seem to "breathe". what i mean by that is that it just doesnt seem to flow up and down with the music. i beleive this is because it is doing only one thing well - pushing mid forward, albiet very smoothly. i agree, this amp is a very good value and sounds best with less revealing speakers. i have been comparing to mostly with arcam a85. the arcam easily proves it also is very good value at 8x the price. i dont think is even fair to make the comparison, considering the price differences. i was thinking i could sell my arcam and ht set up, and replace everything with the panny. that wont be happening. i find the performance gap is about right considering price. if on a very tight budget and need a decent sounding 2 ch AND ht receiver, this would be my recomendation. but for close your eyes and have your soul taken to a different place, i would look elsewhere. imo, of course.
I can appreciate your findings. I was very interested in how the Panasonic would treat those elusive qualities that characterize a very high-end music system: Flow as you decribed, presence and holographic imaging (do the musicians sound like they are in the room with you). I think a presence and a flow that complements it really makes for a better sounding system that would indeed transport the listener. I think on first listen with any new component the tonality, ability to drive a speaker and detail make their face shown first. Once I have listened to the Panasonic again for a longer period I will be sure to report back.
Last year, a friend brought his Panny over and we tried it with a pair of Von Schweikert VR-4's. We fed it an S/PDIF signal directly from a DAT machine. To put it simply, I was amazed. Since I was listening to a live recording from the previous night, I can say it was the most neutral sound I've heard in my system. (Unlike commerical recordings, I already knew what it was "supposed" to sound like.) Also, I didn't expect it, but bass damping was ridiculously good.My only criticism about the sound was concerning some edginess in the upper midrange, but that can apparently be corrected through the available mods.
Wave 'o the future.
This is interesting. I also have experienced that playing back music I recorded myself, in a live classical concert I attended, was very accurately portrayed by the XR45 into my Polk RTi28s. But maybe I'd like to hear it sound "better" or "enhanced?"There are so many factors that go into the presentation of recorded music. Everyone has to use the presentation tools (audio playback equipment) they prefer. I think that mastering engineers have to go for a sound that works best on all kinds of equipment. This may or may not be accurate to the original, but it had better be good and enjoyable for the majority of music lovers/buyers. I think people often prefer a presentation that is "enhanced", just like we prefer photographs that have the little extras done right - contrast, color range and saturation, levels of gray, etc. Measurable accuracy, however, should be the goal in the equipment, so that the recorded art comes through as intended.
Recorded music is like a photograph, and is an auditory art to itself, just like photography is a visual art. Nothing is the same as an original. I don't see a problem with the recording being its own art, while being either closer or farther away from the original depending on the effect desired. This is why good mastering is so important and makes the difference.
Ben
Driving the Aragon 4004 on the bass module of a set of VR4jr's and perhaps one of these digital components like the Panasonic is what I am eyeing in the future. Mixing flavours would be interesting. I still want to hear some SET tube stuff or Nelson Pass Aleph components some time though.
Hi Guys,
I've got an SR45 with upgraded PS Audio power cord and wish I had the same results as you have experienced. No doubt, the Panny is a strong performer and an excellent deal for the money. An amazing deal for the money, but it couldn't come close to my AVA Fetvalve gear (and Ellis speakers which can be very revealing) or my Aragon 24K/4004 combo. I tried the Panny digital direct and through the analog jacks. It sounds WAAAAAY better through the digital direct but still not up to the standard of the more expensive gear.The Panny was smooth, powerful, and very quiet, and didn't sound bat at all. In fact, it really opened my eyes and, at first, made me have to do a quick A/B with my other gear to make sure I was hearing things correctly. I had the Panny running for months so break-in wasn't an issue, plus I used good Bolder Cables and my CDP is a Modwright RAM CD25 with upgraded LC03 clock and tube output. Levels were matched and I really wanted the Panny to sound better because I would have LOVED the $$$ I could have pocketed from the sales of my expensive gear, but there was just something missing from the Panny.
I'm very happy you like the sound of the Panasonic. I am keeping mine for HT and for a possible second system but I can't say my results were anything close to yours.
Cheers,
Jack
Yes, their are a few things missing with the Panny. The imaging is flat, no warmth out so ever and no tone. I wanted this to work out. I found myself listening to music less and less. It just doesn't groove. No jump factor. Sure it's clear and clean but it ain't musical IMO. Had a XR50 and tried a XR70, sold them both. Have you noticed how often the TacT amps are up for sale on Audiogon. Every month. I spoke with a guy who was selling his Tact and has a Panny and his conclusion was very similar to mine. He said the Panny and Tact have a very similar signature in sound and he was hoping the Tact would sound more musical.
Let everyone know when you know what it is! The bigger challenge will be how do you fix or replace it. I will be sure to let everyone know if something "magical" happens with a component like the Panasonic in my system. I did get a glimpse of this "magic" many years ago when I had a pair of Spica TC-50's fed by my current CD player (Nak CDP-2A) through a passive preamp and Adcom 535 in a room with awesome acoustics, attentive detail to setup and a great recording.
I was using the Panny with some Ellis 1801's. I would like to test it with my current speakers, Bamberglab.com Series 2MTM's but I can't figure out how to hook it up to the digital xover (DXC2496). The Series 2's are an easy load (4 ohms) and I'd love to make a comparison soon.I have no problem selling my amps and preamp if the Panny matches or exceeds the performance. I should say, "I would LOVE to sell my amps...". It would be great to pocket the ~$2K that I could get for the amps/preamp on the used market and employ the Panny. Plus, my amps run hot and take up lots of space. In my previous tests, the Panny was good but nowhere near as good as the other gear I was using. Will continue to try and keep everyone posted.
J
The Panny cannot drive inefficient loads or ones with drastic dips in impedence. Most of the people complaining about the Panny do not mention the speakers. It is probably this is where the problem is. Other than that, the Panny sound is neutral, some may not like this.
I'm using Spica TC-50's with my Panasonic XR50 now. Dunno if it's magic but it sounds mighty good to me. (Source Toshiba 3960, digital coax plus several other pieces).
Great post about the Panasonic SA-XR50.
I agree, it's an amazing sounding unit through it's digital inputs. As for burn in, I bought two of them new last year with intentions to bi-amp. It occurred to me that I had an excellent opportunity to test the burn in theory. I played one, and occassionally ran it's output through 8ohm resistors for about a month. I figure it had at least 200 hours total on it. I know it went for 1 week non stop playing white noise on the resistors loud enough to make them hot to the touch - at least a couple watts going through. After that, I took the other one out of the box and did a little comparison. I couldn't hear any difference between them, although they both sounded better to me than I thought the first one sounded when I started listening to it. I had an SA-XR25 before the 50, and at first listen, the 50 seemed a little "plain" and flat sounding to me in comparison. After a month, that impression had changed to smooth and refined, while 25 seemed slightly rough in comparison. This subjective test led me to conclude that my ears do indeed "burn in" to new equipment. The equipment may burn in as well, but I wasn't able to perceive the effect.
I have only had the Primare P30 in my system for a short time. I can appreciate the "ears needing to be burned in". I have precious little time to enjoy the system of late. I'm in the middle of building a new dedicated sound room. I can't wait to enjoy the burn-in when I move everything in there. This room will be more revealing of all equipment changes (great dimensions, dedicated lines, low noise floor). Look forward to seeing how the Panasonic sounds here.
Hi,
Good feedback on the XR50. It is good mainly because, you experimented with different speakers with it. After some tweaking, it is possible to get a sound which is very close to live - atleast pretty neutral and dynamic. You need a good power cord (I am using ChrisVH' cryoed flavor 3) and good digital cable (I am using Zu Ash). The CD player and the Panny should be well-isolated from isolation. The CD player probably needs to be on some ball-bearing device (I am only using Vibrapod cones). After these tweaks, I feel I dont even need a power conditioner, actually the power conditioner seems to restrict dynamics (Blue Circle MR1200).
I am even listening to my LPs happily through the analog input (MMF5 w/ Monolithic Sound Phono pre w/ upgraded power supply and homegrown audio ICs).
I think Audiophile brands are too overpriced and colored. Looks like you need to get to the end of the spectrum to get quality and neutrality together.
Thanks for bending an ear. I have a Wireworld Aurora power cord on my Aragon. Will have to try that out sometime on one of these Panasonic's. Going to try some CAT5 stuff too with my amp/speakers.
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