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Well, I've been playing with some power amplifier extremes in my system. I have a pair of 50wpc AES/Cary SixPac tube monoblocks which sound incredible even though the bass isn't up there where I want it to be. But it's still better than the CJ Premier 11a tube amp I once owned.I also have the 150wpc PS Audio HCA2 digital amp which isn't as transparent or 3 dimensional as the tube monoblocks but it does offer decent bass impact.
Then there's the 50wpc Krell KSA-50S. Wow! Talk about taking control and effortless dynamics. This amp rocks... and it's more transparent and open than the PS Audio HCA2. I've also owned a 300wpc Classe amp, 100wpc SS BAT amp, 125wpc SS CJ amp, 30wpc Pass Aleph 3. NOTHING has come even close to this Krell KSA50S.
Just for the fun of it, I disonnected the Krell and put the PS Audio HCA2 back in the system. What an eye opener. It's like listening to a transistor radio vs being 'in the music' nearly live at loud non-retrained listening levels. I had no idea that my speakers could play that loud - and clean.
So, I'm convinced that the wattage rating of an amp has nearly no bearing on how it will perform in one's system. I have a 50wpc Krell that totally crushes anything else I have ever owned, including a 300wpc Classe and 100wpc BAT. It must have something to do with damping factor and the amount of current this amp can deliver. And it gives up very little in transparency dept compared to the tube monoblocks.
It's like I've rediscovered this hobby all over again and I'm really enjoying my CD's again.
Accuphase DP-65v -> PS Audio PCA-2 Pre -> AES/Cary SixPac tube amps -> Tannoy D500 spkrs
Follow Ups:
Abe, i hope that your latest personal experiences help put some of my previous "harsh" comments about the HCA-2 in better perspective for you. It obviously isn't quite as "High Current" as the name implies or they would like you to believe.This specific Krell does things well because it is high bias, has a massive power supply, a massive output stage and is relatively fast. This means increased linearity with less stress under any given load or signal condition. In plain English, it has "finesse", "speed", "dynamic headroom" and "muscle" with all of these traits available on command as needed. Less stress with greater speed equals less distortion and more control equals greater transient response / dynamics. Since real music is all about dynamics and getting rid of distortion, the transparency of the system has probably improved drastically. Something else that you'll find out as you experiment is that much of what you hear with these speakers will carry on over to other speakers. This is because the amp is more stable into a wide array of loads, making it more versatile in terms of system building. If you remember, i made comment to you about the lack of stability of some of your previous amps before. I knew that this was a place that you could easily improve upon in your system and i'm glad to see that you've found this out for yourself.
As far as power output goes, REAL power output ratings DO matter. For further insight as to what i'm talking about, read the link that i've included below. Other than that, welcome to the "voltage source" club. It's a pretty eye and ear opening event, isn't it? Sean
>
See you have Tannoys.. not my Fav Tannoys, but still damned Impressive when powered adequately :-)
It's NOT wattage that the Tannoys thrive on.. But AMPS.. they need a hi current capable (20amps +) power amp. to be really impressive.
Wattage is just Brochure Babble... and Tube Amps.. sadly, are simply Nostalgic Anachronisims :-)
You can try a Tube Pre.. Bottlehead is a 'Good' start Cheap and pretty darn good (once fully Modded') with a 'worth owning' SS power Amp on Tannoys :-)
You got this far.. don't stop now .
If you want bass, then bi-amp. You can do it actively or passively.For your bass amp, you could use the Krell, but it would be overkill because it sounds so good and you would be missing the midrange and treble provided by that unit. It could be an alternate amp to your Six Pacs.
If you want to bi-amp on the cheap, try an Adcom GFA 5500. You can pick one up in mint condition for about $600. It delivers 350 watts into 4 ohms and has a damping factor greater than 700.
Or you could try a used Proceed HPA2. It pumps out 500 watts into 4 ohms and has a damping factor greater than 800. Last, but not least, a used Belles 350A generates 350 or so watts into 4 ohms and has a damping factor greater than 1200. The new Halo A21 has similar specs and has a rotary control for gain, which is important when balancing it with your Six Pacs.
For an active crossover, try Marchand Electronics. For a passive attenuator to balance the gain of your two amps, try the Ultimate Attenuator from Tweak.com.
http://www.tweakaudio.com/Ultimate Attenuators.html
In my own system, I plan to use the Adcom and one tubed unit from the following: Conrad-Johnson Premier 140, McIntosh MC275 monblocks, Quicksilver V4 monos, or Music Reference RM200. I plan to use a passive attenuator from Tweak.
Best of luck!
I decided to search google for the KSA 50S and your completed auction from Audiogon came up showing you got the piece for $1020. Nice buy- I found it was about $3300 new. Nice power supply for sure-it doubles its power as impedance is halved all the way to one ohm! We have had similar equipment and talked before. Are you using the Krell with the Placette or with an active line stage now? Thanks in advance!ET
A tube preamp might make a nice combo with the Krell amp if it didn't compromise the bass at all. I still maintain that the Placette passive is the most transparent linestage I've ever owned but my situation required a more versatile preamp so the solid-state PS Audio PCA2 is what I'm using these days.
Accuphase DP-65v -> PS Audio PCA-2 Pre -> AES/Cary SixPac tube amps -> Tannoy D500 spkrs
I see that you've got a Denon receiver as an HT processor ( I assume running through the PCA2's HT bypass). Have you ever used the Denon as a preamp along with one of your other amps? If so would you comment on the difference in going from the Denon as preamp to a dedicated preamp (PCA2).
I ask because I am currently using a Denon 3802 as a preamp for an HCA2 and am trying to choose between upgrading to a dedicated pre (prob. PCA2) or a better digital source for my next purchase. Thanks...
Good question. Yes, I use the HT bypass in my PCA2 preamp. I have tried the Denon preamp but never bothered to listen closely for any differences (because I already had the PCA2). If I can set it up so it's not a 'hassle' to A/B compare, I will report my findings.
Accuphase DP-65v -> PS Audio PCA-2 Pre -> AES/Cary SixPac tube amps -> Tannoy D500 spkrs
nt
If you check my old posts you will read that I did own (Bent) and also tried Placette. Great product each! My Krell Ksa-250 needs more than standard 2V cdp output....more like 3V for proper bass response IMO with my Apogees. I did and still own Apogee Centaur Minors along with Vmps supertower/r's and Vmps 626''s which need only about 100 watts to sound their best. My Apogee Duetta Sig's just don't get it with-out gain of an active pre. I did love the Bent TVC but needed more SPL in my new 25 X 22 X 9 ft. dedicated room.If your Krell will give full output with under 2V then this is another thought you may be interested in.
Dave
Krell owner's manual says 1.34vrms input sensitivity and although a good passive might sound better, I need my active preamp for its versatility in my present setup.It would be interesting to try the Krell 'direct' from my CDP w/o a preamp at all. The DP-65V CDP has variable output via XLR or RCA so this is something I may try at some point.
Accuphase DP-65v -> PS Audio PCA-2 Pre -> AES/Cary SixPac tube amps -> Tannoy D500 spkrs
Too bad you went back to active pre route. If you still have the passive, you will hear even more from it. My buddy Fred is using a KSA200. I think the only amp that he can replace it is his own OTL.Paul Lam
P.L.C.Lam Consulting Inc.
I have been there and done that as well. Used to own the Krell KSA 150, SUMO Andromeda, Classe’ Monoblock, ARC D-90, Counterpoint and Quick Silver monoblock. They all sounded different to my ears with each one of them has its advantages and disadvantages. The ARC D-90 was very lush sounding except in the extreme high frequency when it gets a little harder, the Krell presented a different kind of sound with full authority in the bass region coupled with good midrange. The SUMO was lean sounding and has a similar disposition as the Counterpoint, however the Classe’ was a little dark compare to Quick silver which is excellent in the midrange and midbass which doesn’t have much to offer below it.The amp that had me stumped for the last 5 years since I owned it is the ARC D-250 tube amp that put out 250w/c. I am not saying that this amp is one of the best out there it is far from it but in IMEE with other amps that came and went in my system it is far the best that I have heard. It is the only amp that drove my ML Monolith III to its hilt with ease as the case with the Thiel that I am using presently as well. BTW, this amp uses a lot of electricity and it can generate enough heat to heat the whole house as it has 32 tubes. I may trade this amp someday but for the time being, it is more than I need to drive my three speaker systems that I have lying around in my listening room with aplomb with no harshness, edginess and fatigue after effect to my ears.
I don't have enough experience to know for sure but it seems to me the best possible sound would come from a MONSTER tube amp.... Unfortunately, I don't have the space or the cash. ;-) As for keeping my room nice and warm this 'little' Krell runs quite hot during normal operation drawing anywhere from 625-watts to 850-watts continuous. It drops down to 75-watts in 'standby' mode. I commented on this in detail an earlier post.
Accuphase DP-65v -> PS Audio PCA-2 Pre -> AES/Cary SixPac tube amps -> Tannoy D500 spkrs
The Krell KSA 150 power amp that I used to have sucked about 1,200 watts of power from my wall electrical outlet during its peak demands.However, the ARC D-250 sucked out even more at about 2,000 watts during its peak demands. I turn it on, leave it on standby for about ˝ hour before listening, and turn it off right away after the listening session to conserved energy and my electrical bills.
From 50Hz and up, it's the best amp I have ever heard.
it's time to replace the screens with storm windows, clean the fireplace flue and switch the SS amps for tubes.Kal
My listening room is in the basement so having this amp turned on and generating heat saves me a lot of money on my heating bills. As I can close the heat, register in my listening room to redirect the heat to other rooms in the house that needs it the most during my winter listening session.
Try a very good tubed pre-amp with your Krell, I think you will be even more impressed. The Krells are easy to stear in any direction.I chose an Audioprism Mantissa with mine because it had most traits of the Krell so took nothing away but added a slight mid-range roundness that SS amps seem to lack. Bass slam and HF's remain in tact along with dead quiet background.
I have read that SF and AR tubed pre's are a good match with the old Krells...in any case, you would not want to pass mush to the Krell as it will take away the benifit that the Krells power supply gives you.
Dave
Hi Abe,What's your verdict between the Krell and the CJ Premier 11? It seems like you still favour the tube (Cary) over the Krell.
Regards,
Daryl.
I prefer the AES/Cary SixPac monoblocks over the CJ Premier 11a for a couple reasons. The SixPacs go deeper in the bass, they are more transparent, and the soundstage is more 3-dimensional and better defined than the CJ.Of the solid-state amps that I've owned, the Krell KSA-50S comes closest to tubes in the transparency and soundstage department PLUS it has bass speed and slam that my tube amps never had - and yet this baby Krell isn't considered to be one of the best bass performers compared to the bigger Krells.
That said, the SixPac tube monoblocks still present a better defined soundstage and sweeter midrange. The Krell is hugely more dynamic with thunderous bass relative to the SixPacs.
I don't know which I prefer at this point but I think the baby Krell is more to my taste overall. For vocals, smooth jazz, I might like the SixPacs. For most of *my* music listening (current rock, classic rock, blues, etc) I think the Krell is a better fit.
Accuphase DP-65v -> PS Audio PCA-2 Pre -> AES/Cary SixPac tube amps -> Tannoy D500 spkrs
Funny thing about amps Abe..Nothing to do with yours but worth a mention for other people.The Krell Ksa-150 and Krell Ksa-250 could also (at their time) be had as the Mda-300 and Mda-500 mono-blocks. I've had in the past a chance to play with both as stereo and mono's.
The Ksa-250 is a much better amp than the Ksa-150...the 150 has a very slight grain in it's mid-range with very revealing speakers, Yet...it sounds much better as a mono-block than the Ksa-250.
Dave
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