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In Reply to: RE: Dare I start a new thread on Denefrips Preamps? posted by Brody on June 03, 2022 at 18:46:00
All of the Denafrips components are voiced in a manner that can be considered more musical than analytical. 1 o'clock warm, with excellent drive and channel separation. They commit to the musical message, the individual notes in a smooth and coherant manner. They have a flow, a gestalt, that is unhurried but purposeful. The entire product line offers substantial build quality and in todays market, represents excellent value. Is it the 'end sound' you r after, really depends on your satisfaction and contentment level. Their design and engineering ethos does seem unique and as a hobbiest, that in itself can be worth exploring. I believe the 6Moons ended with the comparison of the amps as mirroring a type of EL34 musical Bobby note. Having a couple tube amps, Prologue II, and a Mystere PA11, and having done lots of tube rolling, I guess I can see that. The sound profile is easy to live with thru any number of speakers I've tried. The only time I've noticed a lack of gain, is thru a turntable, running a low output mc, at minimal gain on the Eat GloPetite, and fixing such, is a simple bump in the phono pre's gain stage itself. Otherwise both the Hestia and Athena I own easily drive my Hyperion, the Mystere, and the amp out of my Yamaha A-S2000. The difference between the two, like most extended product lines, is simply 'more'. More detail, more separation, more soundstage, more precise imaging. Otherwise voicing is the same. Hestia is just more 'in the box'. Athena can run 3 sets of amp outs, which is pretty cool, though I'm only running two, as I run the rca out to my Yamaha and an older set of ADS 880's. My understanding is that all three sets of outputs can be run concurrently over long runs. Athena has four sets of balanced inputs and only a single rca. Same with all the preamps, only a single rca input. One of the four, bypasses the input selection controls and is a little 'cleaner', not by much, but you can hear it. I only turn on my phono preamp feeding the rca input when I play lp's, otherwise my understanding is you may get some interference. For me, it's been no big deal, and the Petite fed by a Bob's Sky, VPI Traveler, and a Dynavector 20xL is very good. Your mileage may vary. Athena seems very transparent to cable inputs and downstream amp changes. I've a pr. of ProAc 1sc and completely solid state, with Hyperion and Athena is totally livable, enjoyable. Dropping in the Mystere can be startling. How can such a small mini monitor do that? I do run a single Rel T9i. The solid state setup is so smooth and musical I have on occasion thought of giving up the tubes as the normal blah, blah, blah, ...-. but drop that amp, driven by some WE6CA7 and some nice 6sn7 on front, is why this hobby is so fun. If you haven't heard the intoxicating, liquid, sedeuction, well, keep at it. What else? I really like the footprint of the smaller units, I'm over 'big rigs'. Athena is big. I've bypassed it several times, going dac direct, but I love my vinyl still and keep coming back to the Athena. Unity gain are kinda odd devices though, they don't use much power, and because they aren't additive they are kinda boring, perhaps in a good way, that's up to you. I did hear someone say they, their woofers, wanted more grip, more attack and control, than Athena offered thru it's unity gain architecture. The remotes are good, but most of the buttons are useless. The display can be dimmed, and personally I love the relays 'clicks' as it all feels solid. There is no pass thru, bypass or any such, just the basics. I've not heard the Hades, nor the larger amps. I don't own a tube preamp currently, but that would also require balanced outputs to drive any of the Denafrips amps. My current dacs are SMSL VMV D2 w/Gustard U18 DDC & a Benchmark Dac3. No R2R experience. CD player is the Rotel Tribute. I've some Zu DW's, Elac DFR, hot rodded Daedalus, Castle Conway III, Kef ls50, & the ADS. They all play well with the Denafrips gear. Music has 'body' in a relaxed but authoritative way, voices are very good.
In direct comparison, running the D2 direct into my PA11, with some great 6CA7 tubes, into the 1SC ProAcs sounds more 'alive', that setup breathes air, creates a cloud of its own special magic, snappy inner resolutions, attacks & decay, very SET like, but that's on that on small mini monitors w/only 40wpc, so limitations exist & I still can't play vinyl, so Athena stays...
Edits: 06/04/22Follow Ups:
What would you say are the sonic differences between the Hestia and the Athena?And just how dim will the display get? I wish you could defeat it completely, but I don't want an annoying glare when the room is darkened.
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
Edits: 06/06/22
I wouldn't worry about the display, unless u r overtly anal, it's got three levels of brightness. It gets pretty dim, though I do have bad eyes...- Frankly both preamps, Hestia and Athena, could bore u to tears, but that seems to be my take on most modern preamps. Really they just disappear. I think I noted Hestia as more 'in the box', Athena has better channel separation. Someone not attuned may not even hear a difference as the tonal presentation is similar. Akin to adding a DDC thru a dacs I2S inputs, everything is a bit better spaced, more relaxed more hifi in a good way, a bit more focus and a touch more decay. It's 'better', but in a non critical environment, office or bedroom, you'd probably not fully appreciate the improvements. In the main room, yeah it's twice as good, you won't want to give up what Athena brings. She would be hard to replace. Neither does anything wrong tonally as both are rich and earthy, clothing musical messages with a flesh and bones body, a bit of soul & a bit of grit. These guys can rock the flow as I've heard some 90's grunge sound thrilling thru both, they don't sound lean or transistorly (is that a word?) nor too clean, nor sterile. They aren't lightening fast but they aren't slow nor overtly colored or phat like many older tube amps. Both are kinda minimalist machines, never drawing attention to themselves, never making a fuss. I wish both had an additional rca input as I dabble in cassettes also with an old Nak deck. Sound wise, I could live with Athena forever, function wise? Hestia is just so damn pretty, I gotta find her a home as I'm fond of her look and feel, the way she 'clicks' when I rotate her big aluminum dials. I once owned a beautiful Dodd battery tube preamp, a chromium blonde, bitchin' piece I had to sell clear cross the globe. Sometimes, breakups are hard and I'm just not ready...-
I have limited R2R DAC experience using the Devafrips Ares II. It was definitely smooth and somewhat warm but lost a good amount of detail, transient attack, and transparency. It was excellent with 'simple music' like vocals, smooth jazz, but sounded congested with anything 'complex' like most of my rock music. It would probably be the polar opposite of your Benchmark DAC but I'm just guessing.
Strange, my original Denafrips Ares shines in the areas you call out as missing or lacking in the Ares II sample you auditioned. Nor have I seen these deficiencies mentioned in any of the Ares II reviews I've watched or read. FWIW, I use mine with a CXC transport/Oyaide 510 coax. IOW, nothing outrageous.
Maybe you pulled a bad sample :(
What did you get to replace your Ares DAC ?I've compared a handful of DACs along with the Denafrips Ares II. I can understand the appeal [everybody raves about it] but it wasn't for me. These somewhat recent auditions are better to my ears:
- RME ADI-2 DAC FS
- PS Audio NuWave DSD DAC
- Ayre QB9-DSD
- Chord Qutest
- Topping D90But as we know, it comes down to personal preference. No argument from me that the Ares II was smooth and warm - but it gave up detail and 'slam' and it got a bit congested with anything but 'simple music'.
Edits: 06/06/22 06/06/22
Abe... No, still have the original Ares. Also have an LM 502 in a second system. Actually pleased with both of these DACs. If I were to replace either, the current Denafrips Ares or Pontus would be topping the list. That said, my friend is quite excited about his RME, so I may have to investigate in that direction as well. Bottom line, there's a lot of reasonably priced DAC's out there to choose from. Just have to find the one that fits your ear and budget of course.
If you like the Ares you might not like the RME. The RME is more on the transparent and detailed side with no warmth. On it's own I don't consider the RME to be bright but some might find it to be just that if compared against the Ares II.
Interesting you mention that. My friend with the RME DAC also has a Border Patrol DAC. I guess one could assume these two DAC's represent a wide gap in their sonic signatures. Yet he's able to enjoy both. In his words, the RME presents more detail for sure, yet its voiced in such a way that it's enjoyable and in no way fatiguing. He's also owned the Ares II along the way. To put simply, he says the Ares II falls somewhere in the middle of the two above DAC's in its presentation.
Abe, yes, and climbing up the product line gets u a bit more 'till, on top, u have everything. That's what I found climbing up to a 50k stack of Naim gear years ago and that's still true. People say the Pontus II is the 'sweet spot', the point of most return on $$$ on the dacs. Probably true. Still seems a nice value, performance combination. Sorting thru and balancing a systems 'compromises' may be the hardest part. Athena would perhaps be the equivalent of your Benchmark preamp, giving you this but may take away that. The Denafrips line is 'sure footed' in a way that makes it hard to get wrong from a musical perspective. They don't make a 'bright', nor offensive, piece of gear. Hestia may not be the absolute 'last word' in staging, nor resolution in my great room, but works and fits nicely into a second, non critical, listening space. The Benchmark 3 dacs features and versatility kept me hooked for years, but the VMV D2 is better now. I wish it had preamp inputs as that's a big one, but that's it. Having I2S input, allowing an affordable DDC, which Denafrips also has, really opens up the soundstage. Upsampling thru Roon sounds great, as does MQA. (I know) Somebody here should try one of their DDC's w/your I2S dac, it can be a real eye opener as the performance gains are substantial, especially for the modest cost involved.
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