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Just got an ati 542nc Hypex type class D amp. Running it in now.
It comes with a beefy power chord. Given the efficiency of class D amps, is there any benefit to upgrading it?
Most valuable would be comments from people who have done it.
Follow Ups:
End-user reports indicating a shielded power cord is beneficial for class D amplifiers is a typical finding, but the materials and type of shielding should be considered for any power amplifier application. Typical run-of-the-mill dual shielded power cords tend to be over-shielded and involve less than good-sounding shielding which may do more harm than good. A massive braided copper shield is most effective for intensive EMI shielding rather than RF and class D pollution which is better addressed with a foil shield, but not all foil shields are the same. Typical foil shielded power cords involve Mylar-backed aluminum shielding which tends to affect the sonic signature of a component in a negative way, with a level of coloration that steps on the transparency of a power cord. IME, the best sounding foil shielding method is a very thin layer of pure copper foil shielding, which has the least affect on the transparency of a power cord.
Braided shields while providing effective EMI shielding and EMI suppression tends to affect dynamics in a negative manner, often with a sense of squashed dynamics, especially when used with power amplification, which simply doesn't require heavy-handed EMI shielding to perform better. It's an unnecessary filter with sonic penalties, especially for power amplifier applications, IME. In my opinion, a power cord with a braided shield should only be considered for an application such as a phono set-up that is prone to EMI noise issues. Otherwise, a braided shield is good for suppressing EMI radiated from the power cord of a device that functions adjacent to other cables and power cords within an audio system. High frequency noise including class D pollution can be addressed via an unobtrusive thin pure copper foil shield rather than a hardcore dual-shielded power cord that may be more suitable for a hospital or laboratory environment rather than a home audio system.
My first switching amplifier a PS Audio HCA-2, before I rewired my early seventies California home could be heard on the bedside Sony clock radio.
I constructed a DIY 10 gauge positive and common with an 8 gauge ground. I wrapped the cable with copper foil tape followed by a braided tube wrap grounded at the male plug end. This dramatically improved the RF issue. There was an immediate sonic difference akin to replacing lamp cord with a decent speaker cable. This amplifier took so long to run in detailing these sonic benefits continued to change for sone time.
After the homes amperage increase and the rewiring which included uninterrupted dedicated 20 amp BX clad lines terminated with metal receptacle boxes. Essentially shielded power from the underground grid to the components. This work was by far the biggest improvement in not only the audio and HT but seemingly everything electric.
I eventually replaced the Cardas Golden Ref speaker cable with some NuForce which offered slighly more body and definition.
Seems to be a very comprehensive DIY project, M-dB. The type I'd like to see posted more often in a forum such as Tweakers' Asylum, too.
What interface is the amplifier power cord connected to? Perhaps a power line conditioner or power distributor, or directly to the breaker box?
Cheers, Duster
My electrician had a minor background in audiophelia enough to not smirk and the understanding that everything matters. He built a small sub panel ahead of the main breaker box specifically for the audio and home theater runs. Before the work I demo'd the amp with the stock power cord and the clock radio with jaw dropping affect.
The Utility upgraded from 100 to 400 amp service (for pool and hot tub) which came with a very large diameter cable to a new main breaker and a larger longer ground.
He used what he said is a better than what he usually used for breakers but I'm not sure what brand or model they are.
He did use Hospital grade Hubbell receptacles. Other than that both systems are star grounded into the same lines, no conditioning.
.
Running it in speaks Volumes. Better.. power cord merely reinforces that Opinion.
We hear what we want to hear.
When I upgrade tube in my preamp or change caps in my Maggies, I notice a definitely upgraded sound, but when it comes to power cords or power conditioners for my W4S ST-500 class D amp, forget it.I would suggest listening using the power cord you have now, and if your system pleases your ears, stick with what you have.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Humility is the true mark of genius. Just get used to it."
-Anonymous
Edits: 07/20/17
...I auditioned a pair of Merrill Veritas Class D amps ($12,000) and a different power cord made a difference.
How Class D amplifier efficiency is achieved may also be it's Achilles heel. The conducted and radiated noise generated from such designs require a lot more attention to shielding and bypassing than traditional A or AB amps.A quality shielded power cord may help with noise being conducted back into the AC mains from the amp AND it may help with radiated noise on the power cord itself. I ended up using a couple PS Audio shielded power cords that helped but didn't eliminate the problem in my setup.
But there's another problem more difficult to address. In many Class D amps, the speaker cables also act as antenna to radiate noise. I know because I owned a couple Class D monoblocks years go that sound wonderful in an audio-only setup, but turn on the TV and half the channels were wiped out by the Class D noise, not to mention noise across the FM broadcast band rendering my tuner pretty much useless.
So if I wanted to use my Class D monoblocks for my TV setup or FM tuner listening, forget it.
Edits: 07/19/17
"In many Class D amps, the speaker cables also act as antenna to radiate noise. I know because I owned a couple Class D monoblocks years go that sound wonderful in an audio-only setup, but turn on the TV and half the channels were wiped out by the Class D noise, not to mention noise across the FM broadcast band rendering my tuner pretty much useless."
It is probably very specific to those devices. I have used several Class D amps and continue to use one of them. In no instance have any of them had any effect at all on TV/cable performance. (Don't use FM anymore.)
My PLASMA TV was an incredible RFI producer. On AM bands, with no effect on FM out to 136Mhz.
This was with a 'D' amp and later amp(s) with conventional linear supplies.
Too much is never enough
I listen to UK excellent BBC 3 FM and I would not touch a audio class D amp with a barge pole. Seems most well known brands except Marantz are also steering clear.
I don't want to mention the brand here but these were Class D monoblocks from almost 10 years ago with a MSRP of $5000/pr. My TV reception was not over-the-air but via a Cable TV DVR. If I turned ON the Class D monoblocks a number of channels went blank. The Class D monoblocks were in close proximity to the Cable TV DVR just one AV shelf level apart.
As you say, the significant noise problem may have been specific to this Class D design in the monoblocks that I owned. However, I think the issue of minimizing 'noise' is still a bigger concern in Class D amps than other more 'traditional' designs.
My experience, too, was with a cable box for TV but the power amps sat 3 shelves below that box. OTOH, the intervening shelves were filled with other connected equipment.
Of course, unless one makes a careful survey, one cannot know how pervasive this problem is.
I too use Hypex, all power is world class, Shunyata from outlet (which is also audiophile upgraded outlet), Gutwire to amp.
I can't quite understand why Class D amps need a power cord. My Red wine power amp has batteries inside the case, so no cable needed except for recharging.
With such efficiency that Class D offers, and with CD players and streamers requiring such little power, why does any audio product now require cables or conditioners?
Those who believe that costly power cords and conditioners are essential for optimum fidelity should surely think seriously about doing away with the entire AC stuff and be self sufficient with nice clean interference-free batteries
Cawson: I am unlikely to re-engineer my new ATI amp to run off battery power!
The output stage from my iPod is Class D and it runs off batteries nearly all day long! No power cord required. ;-)
Note: Batteries present their own set of problems but they make for nice marketing spin to differentiate some products. Running off battery power is no guarantee that the amp sounds better than others that require power cords.
The output stage from my iPod is Class D and it runs off batteries nearly all day long!
I'll retire the Harmonic Technology cords for the VTL amps when it becomes practical to get a 500 joule, 550V battery source. :)
> Running off battery power is no guarantee that the amp sounds better than others that require power cords.
I'm not suggesting it does. However it will eliminate the problems that costly power cables and mains conditioners are bought for. If you save a few thousand by doing away with these, that cash could buy a much better amp than the one that requires fancy cables and conditioners.
They don't make a difference if you believe they don't make a difference AND you have confidence in the reproductive capabilities of your system.Throw out the confidence and disbelief creeps in.
Remember stereo reproduction is ALL an illusion... A wonderful illusion that allows us to experience the artistry of the finest, greatest... or no so renown musicians and allow us to be moved. The Artist and producers create a product from real and imagined performances created live or over various time and or geographic venues that somewhere along the line manifests itself in two somewhat correlated voltage signals. Those signals are convolved with the impulse responses of the remaining analog electronics, loudspeaker crossover and drivers which all exhibit noise, linear and non-linear behavior. The acoustic output is further convolved (in a rather nasty fashion) by the cabinet and baffle (apologies to planar owners) and the rooms acoustic impulse responses, also in a linear and non-linear fashion.
The pressure signals that reach our ears would not be recognized if compared to the sound of a live performer, but still that signal is pushed through God's wonderfully created bizarre middle ear and after some modulation and digitization there, electrical and chemical processes trigger several parts of our brain, which goes about trying to classify the sound, analytically and emotionally. On the best of days we believe in the illusion, and Natalie and her Dad, are (impossibly) singing "Unforgettable" in harmony for me in my basement.
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
Edits: 07/19/17
Textbook definition of "expectation bias". :)
I didn't know what to expect when I first heard Kimber Palladians in JWC's system over fifteen years ago.
After he lent them to me for a weekend audition in my system, I got it. ;)
I tend to hear more differences among analog interconnects vs speaker cables. Not much noticeable in power cords but I use an AC power regenerator for all of my source components. And lastly digital cables.And.... I will not succumb to audiophile peer pressure, recommended components reviews, and myths that generally correlate cable performance as being proportional to price.
If one has to critically listen and strain to hear a difference, it's probably imagination (and expectation bias) taking over. ;-)
Edits: 07/20/17
I'm happy with Walmart optical cables, I make make or alter existing cables to fit better for aesthetic purposes. Some which have failed over time, as have some of my other connections.
I have experience a lot of my own expectation bias in my 4.5 decades of audio. I have never cared to try a different power cord, and for fun I have woven CAT5 speaker cables and used Solid Romex in a blind speaker cable comparison. My humble main system MMG with Crown power amps are using 4 pole SpeakOn cables from Guitar Center (the cheaper ones).
I will be the first to admit that my mind is easily fooled into believing the reproduction is real (as long and the producers didn't screw up the mix - which they seem to do a lot of the time). I am so eager to get to "you are there" Nirvana that I've set up several surround modes in my receiver to aid in the conception of a live image. I use to use my old Advent Digital delay system for this. My HK receiver has 17 modes to choose from - every one programmed to provide a near identical level at the listening seat. The optimum settings reside in the liner notes of my CD's and LP's. I wish I had more control over the side loudspeaker delays - and I haven't yet been happy with the few times I have tried 7 channels.
I am also starting to remaster some of my albums as I put them on to a digital server. This is time consuming, but it is amazing how you can take a poorly produced album of a great performance an give it new life with a little more or less stereo spread and dynamic expansion.
IMO, If the audiophile market was not so fixated on stereo only reproduction systems, the tools are available with DSP's today to make a phenomenal real time "image processor" where with a few knobs and sliders and 4 or mode channels of output and a little reverb we would all enjoy the "obsession" a little more without arguing the validity of DBT's.
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
I'm not driven by price alone either.
Five of mine are DIY in the under $100 variety and none break four digits like quite a few do.
"I'm not suggesting it does. However it will eliminate the problems that costly power cables and mains conditioners are bought for. If you save a few thousand by doing away with these, that cash could buy a much better amp than the one that requires fancy cables and conditioners."Possibly true, and I do get your point. However, not all amps require thousands of dollars in additional power conditioners, power cords, and interconnects to sound great.
As with everything in this hobby, beyond a certain point it's all a matter of minute diminishing returns as well as a sprinkling of 'marketing spin' to help differentiate one's product offering from the crowd.
As an aside, I once owned a $1000 battery powered phono preamp. It sounded noticeably worse than a comparably priced phono preamp that ran off a cheap AC wall wart power source. So much for their 'battery powered' marketing spin. The battery obviously didn't make up for the less than stellar phono preamp itself. Go figure.
Edits: 07/19/17
"I'm not suggesting it does. However it will eliminate the problems that costly power cables and mains conditioners are bought for. If you save a few thousand by doing away with these, that cash could buy a much better amp than the one that requires fancy cables and conditioners."
> Possibly true, and I do get your point. However, not all amps require thousands of dollars in additional power conditioners, power cords, and interconnects to sound great.
I agree that it's often totally unnecessary to spend large sums on cables, particularly power cords and conditioners, although I gather that US mains supply is far worse than UK.
I'd agree also with the post that suggested that if you have to listen hard to hear any difference, the differences you think you hear are almost certainly imaginary! If you really want to hear a rattle in your car, you will hear one, even if it's in your imagination.
US power supply must be poor with your brown outs and over fused audio components, in the UK just a heavy duty power cord will suffice.. No Class D for me or audio amps with switch mode power supplies or expensive power cords.
Edits: 07/19/17 07/19/17
"US power supply must be poor with your brown outs and over fused audio components"
That's one of the most naive things I have ever seen on AA! Do you realize that the USA is 3.797 million square miles and 50 states? How can one possibly generalize about an area so large covering such different locations from rural Kansas to NYC; Alaska to Florida; lush woodlands to serene dessert? It's almost as if you had a predisposition to find fault....
US power supply must be poor with your brown outs and over fused audio components...
missing the point made by virtually all the posters.
At the very least a shielded power cord, but good filtration is also important. Class D amps spew so much high frequency noise down the power line that you need something to help combat that before it reaches your other equipment.
Dan Santoni
Fstein,
I had good luck on my Red Dragon Leviathens using the Shunyata CX series power snakes.Started with a Blk Mamba and worked my way up to an Anaconda.The Python and Anaconda were stellar.
I preferred these to many others.They appear to be most at- home with the pre/power end of things.Lower noise floor,wider soundstage and better articulated bass.
That being said,was not as impressed with their characteristics on source components.The balance then shifted to the HF CT-1 and Omega Mikro PPCs.
Please remember,YMMV.
Tom:cat
very good"
With my (bought used) EVS100S stereo amp have been sufficient though previous experience
with class D amps (Red Dragon in particular) has shown that PCs make a helluva difference.
Due to financial constraints I haven't experimented with PCs with the EVS 100S and have none
to play with, but I wish I did!
Let us know how that amp works out for you, I remember you being a Class D fan.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
I have a Linn 5125 which is technically Class V according to them, however, it is a 5x125 amp that weighs in at a whopping 11 lbs.
I upgraded the power cable to a MIT Z and it made quite a difference, smoothing out the highs and overall improvement. This amp is also some years old.
Your experience may depend on your incoming power and if the amp has any built in rejection of impurities. A cord upgrade is definitely worth trying.
Noteworthy, Merrill Audio who builds high quality Class D amps sells some models with an upgrade cord, and, an option for others.
I have found in my system lower signals benefit the most from upgrading the cord. As example, I noticed more improvement overall in my phono stage opposed to my power amp, although both were worth it.
The power cord can make a difference on any component, even those with low current draw, such as an electronic crossover (I use an after-market cord on mine). After trying different cords, I ended up using a Foundation Research cord on my Bel Canto eVo200.2 Tripath amp (+ other tweaks). At the time, Foundation Research had 2 models with different power ratings. I tried both, and chose the one with the higher rating, even though the lower-rated cord was sufficient on paper. I had also tried some TG Audio cords. I'm not necessarily recommending Foundation Research to you, just telling you what my experience was. To satisfy yourself, you'll just have to try some cords in your system to see what you think works best for your taste and setup.
The Foundations are very good. They kill noise off the power line and anything that comes out of the gear into the power line.
Not too many of them got state side. Where did you get yours?
Dan Santoni
Sonic Culture, San Diego, CA. The website still lists Foundation Research.
That's interesting since Foundation hasn't produced anything in years. I think the owner tried a revivel but nothing recently.
The link on Sonic Culture's website is dead too.
Dan Santoni
Didn't follow enough links.
They're excellent power cords/line filters though.
Dan Santoni
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