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In Reply to: RE: Tried without a preamp posted by Tre' on January 28, 2017 at 17:17:28
Harsh words but in the absence of some other reason for the sound to be compromised coming straight off the DAC vs. through the preamp, what other conclusion can we come to?
Rather firmly, too. And once participated in a thread with Charles Hanson on this topic.
That was until I heard really nice actives in my system and others. Why? Dunno. Now I find improved dynamics, both at the micro and macro level.
And sit corrected, Charlie. :)
Follow Ups:
How do you define "really nice"?
I look at all of this from a strictly technical point of view.
A circuit, any circuit, will add noise and distortion.
A line stage preamp will not, can not, make things technically better unless needed to satisfy impedance and drive requirements.
If the source meets those requirements on it's own then no line stage preamp will make things technically better.
Adding technically un-needed circuitry to a system can only make things worse.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
and you do need that IMO with that DAC. Id still upgrade to a better DAC. Do you think a $6K pre when new should be mated with a $399.00 DAC? Come on. Get a nice 4V out DAC and see what happens. Just get a loaner and see. Stop speculating. Its not all about input Z on the amp. Sensitivity is important too. 1.5V for full out......your are mistaken if you think your DAC magically takes whatever source material you play and puts out 2V. NO WAY>
ET
"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936
Edits: 01/31/17
So as I look at Schiits DAC line, I have to get into a unit that has Balanced outputs to get 4v outputs. So this is going to put me at $1,250 or $2,300 (Gungnir with Multibit or YGGORASIL). So the ARC has Balanced inputs and outputs, but my amp doesn't have Balanced inputs. My understand was unless you are doing Balanced all the way through, don't bother. So is there another good DAC that has 4v out on the RCA's? Or is it OK just to run balanced into the preamp to get 4v? Side note, I just passed on the LS27.
How do you define "really nice"?
Hate to put a price tag on it, but the four I heard were around the $10k (or beyond) ballpark Charlie mentioned in the linked post. My SP20 meets that criteria. I used DACT stepped attenuators using JPS Labs wire and Cardas connectors for many years. Still have them if anyone is interested. They're in a really nice Par-Metal case.
A circuit, any circuit, will add noise and distortion.
And you can find multiple posts here where I stated exactly the same thing. :)
"Hate to put a price tag on it,..."
No no.
Tell me about the circuit, not the price tag.
"My SP20 meets that criteria"
I'm looking for a schematic but can't find one. I do see pictures on the inside. There's a lot going on in there.
I'm much more a "straight wire with gain" sort of guy.
"I used DACT stepped attenuators using JPS Labs wire and Cardas connectors for many years."
What is the value of those attenuators?
With resistive attenuators, too low a value can make it hard for some sources to drive. Too high a value and the output impedance can be too high to properly drive cable and input capacitances.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Tell me about the circuit, not the price tag.
The price tag mentioned by Charles does imply a number of factors: hand assembly, careful matching of active devices, use of highest quality wiring, passive devices (including solder) and multiple, ultra stiff power supplies.
I'm looking for a schematic but can't find one.
The line stage (as the SP20 also has a phono preamplifier) is similar to the LS27 which in turn is a refined version of the LS25 MKII found here . It is a zero feedback, Class A hybrid design.
There's a lot going on in there.
Ok. Aside from being a full function preamplifier, there are few bell and whistles. It does, however, offer remote operation, switchable phono loading and the line stage is switchable for headphone output.
What is the value of those attenuators?
10k as recommended by DACT.
While I run my DAC directly into the power amp with my garage system, I prefer using a high quality preamp in the main system for optimum sound quality. BTW, John Atkinson also mentioned the quandary he also experiences with the notion of improved sound quality using an active stage with Hanson's KX-R:
" To my astonishment, the sound of my system with a Transporter D/A processor feeding the preamplifier was better than when the DAC fed the power amplifier directly. Through the KX-R, images sounded more tangible, and the sound was better focused, despite the signal's having been passed through not just another set of interconnects but also through the preamp's input and output socketry, switches, a volume control, printed circuit-board traces, and active and passive parts. Logically, you'd think that having nothing in the signal path would have less of a degrading effect than so many somethings. But no, that was not what I heard, much as I would have preferred otherwise."
Well said John!
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