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In Reply to: RE: People who come round to hear my system have *never* said "it's not cohesive"! :-)) ... posted by andyr on May 18, 2012 at 00:24:37
I know EXACTLY what you mean.
"Wow", "Spectacular", etc, were the common reactions.
And the systems deserved those comments from a technical aspect.
But playing master tapes I knew, it was only after a period of time when the special effects wore off that finally I had to find similar amps so that the music could hang together.
But the wow part is big fun for a while.
But then, maybe it was just my quirk.
Some speakers that I am referring to are Bozaks, Tannoys, Avantgardes, Tympani ICs, IDs, IIIAs, Infinity SS-1s, RS-1Bs, The original full range Apogees, Levinson HQDs, Goldmund Apologues, various custom jobs, etc.
So this observation didn't occur over a single instance. It was actually over dozens of systems, some of which I assembled and some of which various dealers & manufacturers assembled. All had that WOW factor. They were amazing really.
It wan only when the different capabilities and characteristics of the various amplifiers finally manifested themselves as a source of ultimate dissactisfaction with the gestalt of the music, that it became noticeable to musicians and audiophiles whose sensitivities ran in that direction.
For others, for whom the amazing audiophile sound is the ultimate goal, the wow factor lives on to this day, and they don't value that last vestige of compellingly involving music reproduction.
Just different strokes, I guess.
I will say that I don't know a single knowledgeable industry veteran who'd prefer to mix 'n match amps.
They probably exist - I just don't them.
For that matter, while we're opening cans of worms, I've never heard a digitally eq'd system that resembled live music either. In this case, I suspect they can.
But the people I've worked with used the digital eq as a sort of panacea, instead of working fully on the acoustic wave-launch and reception of it at the seat BEFORE the eq is applied.
Please note that I am not against it at all. I AM against it becoming a short cut, bypassing the"organic' foundational things that should be accomplished first. Such systems always fall far short of what their potential could have been.
Best regards,
Jim Smith
Follow Ups:
Thanks Jim and andyr, two very interesting and thought provoking views. I think Jim has hit on what I experienced some years back when I tried a biamp system, ( two Levinson amps with the same output power but from different era's ) details and many sonic perimeters were improved but after a few months I heard what I would refer to as, for lack of better words, a slight blurring. I felt it was do to the two amps working at different speeds.
Jim, are you saying it's worth doing if I use two identical amps? or would I be better off pooling the cost and proceeds of both amps into one better amp? Of coarse that would hinge on what amp I would upgrade to. I did recently drag home many amps both tube and solid state some in the stupid price range over a period of about 18 months before settling on the 532H.
Thanks Tim
Sounds like you've got a good dealer to work with in trying out gear. Is it possible to bridge your 532h and add another 532 and use them as monoblocks? Might be a foolproof way to build on the Levinson's strengths without messing up a good thing. Others have suggested biwire as will I. If you're not biwiring and have only full range cables you could shotgun the two pairs of cable you mentioned and biwire that way, some fellas swear by this method. If all else fails pickup a pair of No.53s and enjoy. Ed
"that there Clarks an RRRR VVVV....don't get too attached...we're taking it with us when leave next month..."
Tim,
First, be sure you don't fall into the trap of using two lesser amps.
I always recommend one superior amp to two lesser ones.
Try to get the best amp that you can, and then get another one exactly like it.
I'm talking exactly - for example not a Pass X-250 and a Pass 250.5
Plus, IMO, there are some benefits to vertical bi-amplification. That means that one amp is used for upper and lower frequencies.
Then, not only do you get the benefits of bi-amplification that should sound coherent, you get the imaging benefits of what is essentially a pair of bi-amp monoblocks.
I cannot stress enough that the two amps be alike - even to the point of nearly the same production times. IF you are OCD like me you might make an innocent call to the factory to see if there have been any running un-anounced changes in a particular model you are considering. :)
All of this is IMO, of course, and others may vehemently disagree...
Best regards,
Jim Smith
Many industry professionals like yourself often speak of discontinuities between amps if different amps are chosen. Sorry Jim, but I feel that this is bunk. The reason for the discontinuity is often claimed to be the distortion charcteristics of said amps. Understandably. When the inherent distortions between driver types are magnitudes greater, why are people concerned with such claims? You have an 80 thousand dollar amp that for that kind of money should do it all (The Lars). So why the other amps? Sorry, but for 80 large I'd expect it to be IT, and for the band to appear live.
I have not seen or sold one of these amps in production-ready status, as they have been undergoing metalwork issues. Nor have I been promoting them here.As such, they didn't enter my mind when posting what I thought was a reasonable suggestion arising from years of experience voicing systems all over North America.
(FWIW - I use Quicksilver Mid-Mono amps, which sell for $1895/pr.)
What did enter my mind was the hundreds of systems set-up by audiophiles with mismatched amps that I've heard that were satisfying on a sound-effects-level, but never on a serving-the-music-level.
You can say all that you like in a disparaging manner - however, it was my intent to help and is the only reason I post here.
I do not and have not mentioned the products I sell. Well, actually that's not entirely true - I was asked various questions about Avantgardes when I was the distributor from 2000-2005 and - honestly speaking - get lots of e-mails even now. But I've always tried to reply as factually as possible, but minus the hype we sometimes see in certain quarters.
All that being said, I'd be surprised if your system is performing at more than 50% of its performance capabilities if you reject common-sense advice from folks with vastly more successful experience that you have.
But it your prerogative to make character insinuations.
When you think about the manufacturer/industry types who no longer post here, this is an excellent example of an inducement to just give up on providing advice.
Not that my advice is anything special, but I've been contributing here when I thought I could help for about 12 years. Go back and read what I've said and look for self-aggrandizement.
Not sure why, but the description of my advice as bunk especially hurts. Hopefully you were just having a bad day when you wrote it.
Best regards,
Jim Smith
Edits: 05/20/12 05/20/12
Well, that of course isn't the case, it's special indeed. How many other people set-up or advise on set-up of home audio systems professionally?
I've got a great dermatologist but he wouldn't be my first choice to fix a compound fracture. Even if he has the knowledge and license, I want the experience!
I got a kick out of your concern over running production changes. Now that IS something I'm intimately familiar with but most folks probably don't even know that there is such a thing let alone have a clue how production control is actually implemented or what the assumptions and tradeoffs are. Just your mentioning it says a great deal both about your thoroughness and perhaps the ilk of the problem.
Thanks for sharing from your unique perspective, I selfishly hope you keep it up!
Regards, Rick
Sorry Jim. I looked at your equipment listing and you have 5 or 6 different amps listed. From the hype surrounding The Lars, it should be the be all end all. As far as mismatching amps, many "industry professionals," Gizmo among them, have suggested push pull tubes for the lows and single ended tubes for the highs. Sounds like they have some 'splaining to do. At a yearly show in Dallas a manufacturer of an 8 K speaker provides the option of a single amp or tri amping his speakers. With a sand amp on the LF and the above listed amps on the mids and highs the system was open and coherent as all get out. It made the single amp running through his crossover sound closed in. Must have been dumb luck, or just my less informed knowledge of what sounds right.
Hey Ozzie,
Thanks so much for your note.
I really appreciate it.
After I went to Church, all I could think of was what an over-sensitive wuss I am.
And it's not exactly like we're worrying about world peace.
It's our hobby!
Thanks again!
Best regards,
Jim Smith
Well said Jim, always a gentleman.
Now that the scurmish has settled. I am curious about something that cost $80K which is a new amp of some sort, I guess, that is called a LARS. If it is not an amp - is it a speaker? Never heard of it but evidently Jim Smith has much to do with its production. Can anyone fill me in on this? Thanks in advance.
Steve
A lot of this info is out of date now.
That's because the owners went through some incredibly unfortunate personal health-related issues in the past 16 months, and the updates haven't been posted.
The first production models should ship in about 6 weeks.
They look a bit different, sound better, have more useable features that contribute to their sound as required by different speakers, and we will only import the power amps to the US, not the original integrateds.
http://www.thelars.se/
Best regards,
Jim Smith
Up front, my comment comes from a single speaker experience, not the wide range of system listening that Jim brings to the table.
Some years ago I owned one of the large Duntech models. In spite of the relatively highly rated efficiency (90 dB) I quickly learned that quality power was important. Those speakers allowed for bi-wiring (or what I called passive bi-amping), but not active bi-amping, at least not without opening up the cabinet to bypass the internal crossover.
A friend owned the same model Duntechs so we experimented with a number of amplifiers. At one point we tried a powerful tube amp on the mid/tweeter connection, with a substantial SS amp on the woofers, using a good quality pot in-line to equalize input. Nothing sounded better than his or my VTL amps running full range. Then we had an idea - we put his VTL 225s on the mid/tweets and my VTL 300s on the woofers. Now that was a WOW experience. Spacious, dynamic, effortless, by far exceeding anything else we'd tried so far as representing a real musical event.
But while the two VTL models were the same basic circuit design, there were two important differences. My 300s had larger output transformers and utilized KT-90 output tubes while my friend's 225s used EL-34s. In spite of being enraptured by that sound, it was not practical for me to live with four amps (the VTLs were monoblocs for those not familiar) and 32 output tubes in a house without air-conditioning. :^(
My point was in this case two very similar, although not identical, amps did provide the most musically rewarding results we heard. That was until a few years later when we both discovered the Halo JC-1 amps. That was the only one in our experience that competed with the passively bi-amped VTLs.
"For a nominal service fee,
you can reach nirvana tonight."
.
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