|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
65.19.26.123
In Reply to: RE: Solid State Power: MOSFET vs. Bipolar? posted by pictureguy on October 12, 2010 at 09:18:55
HI,
Probably but much depends on the quality of the system and the amount of exposure. But I would not even try when you have not filled out a profile system. Why should I work for you when you have not worked for me? I want to see what your decisions are when you have to pay.
Of course, all this is hypothetical since this circumstance will never happen.
Check out my profile system. You will see that I have put my money where my mouth is.
Sparky
Follow Ups:
I'll try to fill in a profile system....whatever that is....or do you mean system profile? Although I simply don't see what my system has to do with the question. Nobody asked you to do 'work', the ultimate 4 letter word, maybe.
As for the rest:: I am just thinking about characteristics being ascribed to a part....in this case a transistor...be that bipolar, JFET, MOSFET, Various 'N' or 'P' channel devices....or whatever. The wisdom is that some stuff sounds a certain way. No mention is made of the gain stages in front or in back of the part in question. Or the circuit topology used, which IMO should make a bigger difference.
Also, and this is just my opinion, I'd like to see a comparison of 'best' with 'best' and see who can tell what and how much difference....and If certain parts can easily be identified. Same goes for class of operation....'A' 'A/B' or even 'D'. Just a difference would make me happy. Not a value judgement of best, but just difference.
Too much is never enough
HI Picture,
Good. Thanks for filling out your system profile. It's helpful to me so I can choose the right terminology with which we can talk. It also gives some idea of your experience and sonic tastes. I find it very helpful and I think others do too since I find forums a difficult medium to communicate complex ideas.I think you are expecting too much. The finest minds in audio have been fighting with your questions as long as hi fi has existed. I will give you my view about amps and sound. Take it for what it is worth.
I do not believe in mixing technologies. IOW, I belive that a system should be all solid state or all tubes. The entire equipment chain is involved in this monoculture. This becomes more important when great and expensive equipment is under consideration. More than technologies, one must gain an appreciation of the sonic tastes and goals of the equipment desgners. The great ones always develop designs that have their own personal signature sound. At this level one buys the designer rather than the technology.
It is also true that each great designer also has a pet technology. For example, Audio Research is known as a tube company. Krell is known as a bipolar solid state company and Jeff Roland has excelled with FET designs. Each of these companies have a characteristic sound unlike any other. So, can we talk of the technology or the designer? In truth the two go together. We must talk about them together.
In the cases above, each of the companies produce excellent sounding designs but they are all different from one another and different from any other using the same technology. So, if one were to say that Krell is their favorite amp then that same person would also say that bipolar solid state is their favorite technology. The same would hold for me when I say my favorite technology is tubes. What I am really saying is my favorite sound is from Audio Research who happens to use tubes. Thus, by this logic, I prefer tubes.
I have heard many tube amps that I don't like. I have also heard many solid state designs that I would not own. Conversely, I have heard solid state designs that I prefer over most of the tubes I have experience with. The conclusion I have come to is the execution of the design is more important than the technology. I currently own Audio Research (my main system), Krell (my HT system) and Levinson (drives the subwoofers in my main system but used to be the amp I used in my main system). So, as you can see, I am an equal opportunity hi fi fanatic.
But, at the far frontier of hi fi, I choose tubes for my sonic nervana. I think tubes ultimately offers the best potential. At this level of performance, trying to describe the sound is almost beyond what the language is capable of describing. But, my ears know it even if I don't have the words to properly describe the experience. And I'm not going to try here.
My suggestion is to expose yourself to as many amps as you can always using the same demo material. Try to eliminate as many variables as possible. You will develop a sensitivity for certain characteristics of the sound. As your listening skills develop you will hear commonalities. Then you will decide what you like. Discipline yourself to write down what you hear. You need to develop your own sonic vocabulary. Be careful to maintain a balanced outlook and not get caught up with a particular characteristic that you may reject in a few weeks. Remember, we have all made this mistake and this can get expensive.
Study the amplifier topologies and correlate them to what you hear. With time you will hear the answers to your questions. This is the only way. Hi fi is a learing, self-involving experience.
Sparky
Edits: 10/13/10
Well, I don't know how my system profile helped, but there it is. I'm doing the best I can with limited space, though I CAN turn it up as loud as i want.......Also, I am a 'stability' guy. I DO NOT have the resources to change gear on an experimental whim. Even when I was making 6 digits, my system was stable for about 20 years. My Carver Cube was dumped in favor of a Rotel, which lasted about 6 months, the ONLY time I've simply dumped something I didn't like or made such an awful error. I can remember nearly every major piece I've ever owned, including a Pioneer SX727 receiver and a Kenwood integrated. (powered my MG-1s for a short time)
Now, all those amps and companies DO have a house sound no doubt. Just my Opinion, but someone who says they like Krell doesn't say much about Bipolar. Sure Krell is bipolar, but than many others are as well, some of which person 'x' may not like.
Also, what governs the 'sound' you recognize? Most amps feature several gain stages. The possibilities are near-limitless with
2 examples you missed are Mac and Pass. Mac is Mac and has been so for a long time. Like good Champagne it is 'blended' for the Mac sound and exhibits great consistency over long time periods....and I don't even know who to credit for the design though these days I'm reasonably certain they are 'voiced' by committee.
Nelson Pass? Threshold? some Adcom? And, while Pass is typically a MOSFET guy, his amps are frequently current source, not voltage source. His designs are maybe the most varied of any single designer, living or dead.(Including Bob Carver) They run the gamut from his first watt stuff to the current (no pun intended) XA stuff. Panels and Pass seem like a good match, too.
As for mixing SS and Tubes? Wow, what a can of worms. So many philosophies, some from people I've known for a while and respect. I could see myself one day, owning a tube preamp, but am not looking and won't until after I win the lottery. Age-wise, I'm less than a year from Nelson Pass age, and was raised with tubes. And the annual trip to the local tube tester!
And finally, Man, I WISH I could 'test amps in my system' as a paraphrase (I hope) of your suggestion. And also yes, no telling what I'd 'find'. Maybe I like Krell, though my brief experience says NO. Mac and Maggies? I've only seen a few posters with such a match. Me? I'd love to try Bryston and maybe some 100 watt or better tubes on my panels. I suspect from looking at the electrical measures that Magnepan and tube are a good match. Low reactance and reasonably flat impedance. Nice.
Maybe my tagline should be ::
If I was only born rich, instead of just good looking!
Too much is never enough
HI picture,
There is a way to expose yourself to a variety of amps, in your system, and not cost a fortune. Buy excellent stuff used. The operative word is EXCELLENT. The initial entry price can be high but after that you can turn over equipment at no loss or possibly even make a profit.
This method won't get the most current equipment because to make it work you have to wait until depreciation is maxed out. I have found that great amps remain great for a long time. So, for example, a great ten year old amp will still be very close to the state-of-the-art represented by current models.
I think this is less true of solid state amps than tubes. Solid state amps are still evolving trying to overcome basic problems inherent with the use of bipolar transistors. But they continue to improve. The best of the ten year old solid state designs can be excellent even now.
You are right. I left out Nelson Pass. I wasn't trying to be comprehensive. I was trying to illustrate my point with brands I have owned. I am a big admirer of Nelson Pass. My leaving him out of the discussion should not be taken as a put down or ignoring one of the great modern amp designers. The "buy used" technique should not extend to Threshold (Pass designs). They can't be maintained with reasonable ease. Great amps though.
I note that you have Maggies. I have always liked them no matter the model or age. When I was in the market for a magnetic panel speakers, the choice came down to Maggies and Apogee. Eminent Technology was not on the market yet. Apogee won. But not for long. I ended up with Martin Logan CLS IIA electrostatics which I still love 20 years later. Now here is a speaker that will expose every wart in a system. With CLS IIA's synergy is extremely important; more than usual. They work beautifully with tubes but most tube amps can't handle the brutal load. My ARC D250 Mk II Servo amp puts those problems aside.
Sparky
Yep, karma,
I've been aware and heard of people doing the preowned swap and roll thing for a while. I'm not going to get on that bus.
And yes, there are bunches of amps out there which would qualify as testable. I'd personally like to try a Mac with my panels. Or Bryston....or a Pass.
I have no interest, however, in going 'tube'. Here's what would happen. I buy a nice tube amp. Something of decent power and good reputation. I don't like it. Than the trouble would start. 'Why didn't you try XYX tubes?' OR 'Those nasty I/Cs are the problem.....Junk 'em out!' OR 'You use WHAT for speaker wire? That's in insult to that fine amp'.
I've seen suggestions and comments like above for while now. Even stuff that makes no sense. Guys' got a hum.....Sounds to me like some kind of ground problem or maybe a dimmer or other device on the same line. Next thing you know, he's induced to lift all his grounds, buy a 2kva iso transformer and get the power company to run him a new feed and transformer. Problem persists. His wife sews at the times he likes to listen and the motor control of the sewing machine is putting some 'hash' on the line and some RF in the air.
I see you've had your speakers for a LONG time....at least by hifi standards. This is a good thing, to me, at least. I had my first set of panels for 20+ years and a rebuild thru WhiteBear Lake. Sold 'em to buy some 1.6s and a new amp.... Magnepan is Magnepan...even over longer time periods. The only thing they screwed up, IMO was when they rotated the pole piece to the BACK and sold 'em with the mylar side to the listener. Just my opin, but I have ROTATED my panels and listen to the pole piece side to great satisfaction.
Cheers::
Too much is never enough
HI,
I can understand, I guess, you not wanting to go to tubes. But, you act like your actions are being driven by others. That I do not understand. If you want to learn, you must do it yourself and to hell with what others think, including me.
Sparky
I can see, perhaps where my last post may lead you astray. The couple brands I mentioned include 2 which are mentioned a lot with Magnepan and 1 which isn't...Mac.
Not accurate. I'm a little on the obsessive side so approach things like a lunatic. IF I bought tube gear, I'd be tempted to go the 'rolling route' and finish off my last active brain cell. IF I did buy tubes I'd start with a pre. I understand (correctly?) the tubes last longer. The other thing. If I bought tube stuff, I'd end up with a tube checker and 300$ worth of Fluke and maybe even a scope....than cap tests and the road to insanity.
The fact that I'm not nutty about cables and power cords is evidence I'm not letting others choose my stuff by consensus. I DO see bunches of that, however, and you only rarely see my moniker in one of those 'what do I buy' threads where somebody asks about the 'best' something. I advocate listening. Tour local stores and get ideas of what you do or do not like. stuff like that. I've read many threads, for entertainment value, in which people advocate nearly opposite views...just a couple posts apart. The one 'best of' threads I did answer was one about inexpensive balanced cables. I was about the 5th person to advocate Mogami....while some other people were spending the OP's limit of 300$
Personally, I'd like to go hear more live music. I think that is my big weakness. I'd also like a larger base of stuff I've heard. The local emporiums are good for that and always have something interesting on, and I don't bug 'em......though I occasionally bring some interesting music.
Too much is never enough
Post a Followup:
FAQ |
Post a Message! |
Forgot Password? |
|
||||||||||||||
|
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: