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Digital Drive: RE: How can a transport make such a big difference? by Thorsten Upsamplers, DACs, jitter, shakes and analogue withdrawals, this is it. |
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In Reply to: How can a transport make such a big difference? posted by Mike K on March 18, 2021 at 06:48:41:
Hi,
It must be understood how Audio CD (as opposed to data CD) works.
It includes a basic CRC Code (to check data integrity), but no data redundancy, which would allow misread data to be reconstructed. If a "bad" word is detected it is "interpolated" from the last good and next good word, there is no attempt to re-read the data (as it would be with a Data CD) or reconstrut missing data.
The CD is a thin sliver of plastic and can deform as a result of being exposed to external acoustic waves, other vibrations or even tolerances in the drive mechanism.
While the laser system can track some of this, there are limits. The typical low cost linear drive systems with geared systems include "slack" and are especially limited. The old Philips Swingarm mechanisms were much better in this respect.
Once the CD is enough out of focus, the data will read incorrectly. Data will be interpolated. When we did the AMR CD-Players we had to look into this in more detail than I cared to learn about.
This explains the result of many mechanical tweeks, be it Teak VRDS or Pioneer Stable Platter mechanism, C.E.C Belt drive with a huge heavy clamp, they cancel many of the mechanical issues and prevent mis-read data and thus "interpolated data" which is not what was there originally.
The second element is the clock. A crystal oscillator can be "pulled" away from the nominal frequency a considerable degree by changing the power supply voltage.
Many transports and CD-players power the clock from the power supplies that also power the CD Processor IC, and even motors and servos. You can see the modulation of the clock power on a good oscilloscope, it's enough to mess up the jitter performance of the clock, even if with a clean power supply it would be adequate.
So the clock should have a really stable, low noise power supply that has at least a separate winding, better separate transformer to power it, so it is isolated completely from the rest of the circuit.
The third factor is the actual SPDIF Output stage. The quality of these varies widely. Actual output impedance, stability of output impedance with frequency, cabling etc. make a big difference on the recovered jitter.
Ideally the SPDIF signal is reclocked directly at the output jack using our super clean clock and then suitably adapted to correct levels and impedances within a few mm of the BNC jack (RCA Jacks are not as good on impedance match).
Which brings us to cable and DAC. Ideally a DAC should be designed to reject all source clock jitter on the SPDIF input. It is possible to do this, but rare (it's somewhat non-trivial, having done it several times on different hardware platforms).
In reality receiver chip, actual physical interface, connectors etc. play a role. Impedance mismatches cause excess jitter on the recovered clock, as does degraded waveform etc. Some times a cable with a "wrong" impedance actually works better than the correct impedance, because it actually matches the real circuit better.
So, in something that should be "in theory" a reliable and purely digital "It's all numbers right?!" pathway there is a huge amount of actually ANALOGUE and MECHANICAL problems which if unaddressed mess up our pure numbers.
Before switching to PC and USB as digital source (which has another set of problems, though most much less severe than SPDIF) my preferred transport was a modified Pioneer first generation DVD Player.
The DVD Player stored the data fromm the CD in RAM, it was reading the CD to immediately fill the RAM buffer to max and was able to attempt re-reads in case of CRC errors. This dealt with most mechanical issues in a cheap and easy way.
The output in the original design was reclocked and was transformerless and buffered by a discrete buffer, basically a video circuit almost exactly the same as the analogue video outputs and the waveform was exemplary.
The modifications were a new "super-clock" (for 44.1kHz CD Replay only) with it's own transformer and power supply and a new analogue stage (discrete, LC Audio) also with it's own power supply and transformer for the on board Legato Link DAC which I rather liked the sound and BNC connectors for Audio & Video.
It was the best transport for CD I found, and it ruled at many an audio meet. IIRC the unit new was 399 UK Pound, but I bought it discounted. The Video performance was also rather nice. For 480p SD TV.
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Topic - How can a transport make such a big difference? - Mike K 06:48:41 03/18/21 ( 67)
- RE: How can a transport make such a big difference? - Thorsten 03/29/21 08:23:29 03/29/21 ( 0)
RE: How can a transport make such a big difference? - fredtr 08:21:12 03/27/21 ( 0)
RE: How can a transport make such a big difference? - rogerh113 06:57:10 03/21/21 ( 0)
timing - PaulN 23:58:31 03/19/21 ( 10)
- RE: timing - fred76 00:50:05 03/21/21 ( 2)
- RE: timing - PaulN 12:56:58 03/21/21 ( 1)
- RE: timing - fred76 22:09:28 03/21/21 ( 0)
A cart/horse inversion - 13th Duke of Wymbourne 08:56:59 03/20/21 ( 6)
- I think I have some familiarity with the CD system.... - John Marks 16:41:28 03/20/21 ( 3)
- RE: I think I have some familiarity with the CD system.... - 13th Duke of Wymbourne 11:32:17 03/21/21 ( 2)
- Sorry for not being clear enough, yes, "kludge" was re: S/PDIF+cables - John Marks 05:45:44 03/22/21 ( 1)
- RE: Sorry for not being clear enough, yes, "kludge" was re: S/PDIF+cables - 13th Duke of Wymbourne 16:52:01 03/22/21 ( 0)
I guess so... - PaulN 13:26:59 03/20/21 ( 1)
- RE: I guess so... - 13th Duke of Wymbourne 17:59:37 03/23/21 ( 0)
3 things that destroy the sound of all transports... - geoffkait 13:47:34 03/19/21 ( 5)
- RE: 3 things that destroy the sound of all transports... - rivervalley817 13:58:01 03/19/21 ( 4)
- RE: 3 things that destroy the sound of all transports... - geoffkait 15:12:53 03/19/21 ( 3)
- RE: 3 things that destroy the sound of all transports... - rivervalley817 15:21:15 03/19/21 ( 2)
- RE: 3 things that destroy the sound of all transports... - geoffkait 05:59:09 03/20/21 ( 1)
- RE: 3 things that destroy the sound of all transports... - rivervalley817 12:11:34 03/20/21 ( 0)
It's because the CD system is based on 1960s-1970s ANALOG Color TV technology - John Marks 05:54:09 03/19/21 ( 35)
- RE: It's because the CD system is based on 1960s-1970s ANALOG Color TV technology - Todd Krieger 14:46:03 03/23/21 ( 0)
Would be funny if wasn't so Tragic - Jon L 11:02:16 03/19/21 ( 4)
- RE: Would be funny if wasn't so Tragic - rivervalley817 12:47:50 03/19/21 ( 2)
- Not the cables - Jon L 13:20:14 03/19/21 ( 1)
- RE: Not the cables - rivervalley817 13:27:47 03/19/21 ( 0)
And of course ... - Mike K 12:44:10 03/19/21 ( 0)
CD media composition difference preference? - Rocket_Powered 08:50:14 03/19/21 ( 5)
- RE: CD media composition difference preference? - hahax@verizon.net 19:28:41 03/19/21 ( 1)
- Obviously the metal layer and the clear layer are variables that affect the sound. What else is new? Nt - geoffkait 16:51:23 03/20/21 ( 0)
Hmmm... - John Marks 15:00:19 03/19/21 ( 2)
- SHM made claims for their CD composition. - oldmkvi 06:54:48 03/20/21 ( 1)
- RE: SHM made claims for their CD composition. - geoffkait 12:08:04 03/21/21 ( 0)
Not surprising to me - E-Stat 06:49:20 03/19/21 ( 22)
- The precise mechanism is, to say the least, poorly understood - John Marks 07:31:26 03/19/21 ( 21)
- RE: The precise mechanism is, to say the least, poorly understood - CG 07:34:40 03/20/21 ( 18)
- Ferrous: Austenitic vs. Martensitic Steel - John Marks 16:48:48 03/20/21 ( 1)
- RE: Ferrous: Austenitic vs. Martensitic Steel - CG 05:45:07 03/21/21 ( 0)
- RE: The precise mechanism is, to say the least, poorly understood - geoffkait 09:08:08 03/20/21 ( 15)
- RE: The precise mechanism is, to say the least, poorly understood - CG 10:51:53 03/20/21 ( 14)
- RE: The precise mechanism is, to say the least, poorly understood - geoffkait 11:10:45 03/20/21 ( 13)
- RE: The precise mechanism is, to say the least, poorly understood - CG 13:05:37 03/20/21 ( 12)
- RE: The precise mechanism is, to say the least, poorly understood - geoffkait 13:39:10 03/20/21 ( 11)
- Ed Meitner introduced me to cryogenic processings of CDs in the mid to late 1980s - John Marks 16:33:58 03/20/21 ( 10)
- RE: Ed Meitner introduced me to cryogenic processings of CDs in the mid to late 1980s - geoffkait 03:59:40 03/21/21 ( 9)
- At one point there was an at least nominal business... - John Marks 08:19:54 03/21/21 ( 8)
- RE: At one point there was an at least nominal business... - geoffkait 08:44:29 03/21/21 ( 7)
- RE: At one point there was an at least nominal business... - CG 06:30:40 03/22/21 ( 4)
- Thermal shock occurs even without direct immersion in liquid nitrogen, contrary to some opinions. Nt - geoffkait 09:46:08 03/22/21 ( 0)
- Bob Crump had negative results because you didn't wait for thermal shock to wear off. Nt - geoffkait 09:16:41 03/22/21 ( 2)
- RE: Bob Crump had negative results because you didn't wait for thermal shock to wear off. Nt - CG 18:17:54 03/23/21 ( 1)
- RE: Bob Crump had negative results because you didn't wait for thermal shock to wear off. Nt - geoffkait 03:18:31 03/24/21 ( 0)
- IIRC, Convergent Audio Technologies cryo'ed their stuffed PCBs. - John Marks 15:22:17 03/21/21 ( 1)
- List of High End Cable Companies that employ cryo... - geoffkait 05:03:03 03/22/21 ( 0)
RE: The precise mechanism is, to say the least, poorly understood - jbcortes 08:11:09 03/19/21 ( 1)
- Not only that! He said he could hear the exact moment when the - oldmkvi 10:27:38 03/19/21 ( 0)
RE: How can a transport make such a big difference? - s.a.b. 05:49:13 03/19/21 ( 0)
RE: How can a transport make such a big difference? - hahax@verizon.net 20:44:18 03/18/21 ( 0)
Had the sane experience with the CXC V1 - Batman 18:30:34 03/18/21 ( 0)
RE: How can a transport make such a big difference? - Daveslater 15:15:40 03/18/21 ( 0)
RE: How can a transport make such a big difference? - Rocket_Powered 12:51:47 03/18/21 ( 3)
- that might make an interesting project - Story 13:07:48 03/18/21 ( 2)
- RE: that might make an interesting project - Rocket_Powered 18:55:45 03/18/21 ( 1)
- RE: that might make an interesting project - Story 19:54:00 03/18/21 ( 0)
RE: How can a transport make such a big difference? - DKL 10:17:37 03/18/21 ( 0)
you are changing more than transports - Story 07:10:57 03/18/21 ( 1)
- RE: you are changing more than transports - fantja 01:02:43 03/22/21 ( 0)