You're not the only guy who can write long posts.

Posted by Bob Neill (D) on January 27, 2008 at 17:29:46

In Reply to: A tentative disagreementâ€¦ posted by David Aiken on January 23, 2008 at 18:44:09:

Consider this neither a response to you nor a continuing defense of my post, but just further thoughts on the subject. I still cling to my general thesis but have nothing serious invested in it, especially considering the qualifications Iâ€™ll spell out here.

Below are a dozen candidates for â€œmajorâ€ status in the 20th century (broadly considered time-wise to include Mahler and Sibelius), along with the works by which we know them best. All of them wrote lots of other stuff, much of it very good, which broadened their oeuvres.

Would we consider them â€œmajorâ€ if they had written just the music we know them for best? Does the fact that Shostakovich wrote operas, that Debussey wrote a distinguished string quartet and well-known orchestral music, that Britten wrote moving concertos for violin and for piano, and that Strauss wrote the best oboe concerto Iâ€™ve ever heard make their cases stronger? Maybe, maybe not. (Melville wrote one great novel and a couple of famous novellas. He also wrote another half-dozen or so novels and a ton of poetry. Would we consider him great if heâ€™d written nothing but Moby Dick?) We donâ€™t HAVE to answer these questions, but if weâ€™re going to do anything like making such a list of major or the best composers (or novelists), we really should consider them. This is only a game, but no game is worth playing unless you play it hard and to win.

(Perhaps the best answer to the question of what art constitutes the canon (of greatness) is literary critic Frank Kermodeâ€™s: that which continues to please critical audiences (defined as people who listen to classical music?) over a couple of centuries. No definitions or rules or quotas needed. Time will tell us if we give it enough time.

One strong opinion I do have about all of this is that if a composer wrote only one great work, it would have to be very great indeed to get him onto such a list. (Moby Dick has obviously been considered great enough on the novel side to get Melville in; The Invisible Man not great enough to qualify Ralph Ellison.) I think we have decided that if a composer contributes largely to one genre and writes some of the best music there is in that genre, heâ€™s in. (Thereâ€™s a shot at my broad oeuvre thesis.) If we were talking about the nineteenth century, Wagner, Verdi, and Puccini would walk in. Copland is in for his ballets, with or without his many fine works for piano; Sibelius is probably in by virtue of his symphonies but he wrote a hell of a violin concerto and a couple of fine tone poems. Webern maybe doesnâ€™t make it because his â€œsmallâ€ works arenâ€™t sufficiently brilliant. I always cop out by calling Shoenberg, Berg, and Webern one composer called Second Vienna School!

Okay, your turn, unless this game bores you. And feel free to edit me below. I canâ€™t think of the composer youâ€™re looking for, but Iâ€™ll keep hunting.

1. Stavinsky: ballets broadly defined to include smaller dance works; concertos.
2. Bartok: String Quartets, Concerto for Orchestra, Piano Concertos, Violin Concerto, Divertimento for Orchestra, Solo Piano Music.
3. Shostakovich: String Quartets, Music for Solo Piano, Piano Trio, Cello and Violin Concertos, symphonies.
4. Britten: Operas, Cello Symphony, Suites and Sonatas, Non-operatic vocal music.
5. Debussy: Solo piano music
6. Shoenberg: chamber music, opera, misc. other vocal music, orchestral music.
7. Berg: chamber music, operas
8. Webern: chamber music and songs.
9. Richard Straus: operas, tone poems
10. Silbelius: symphonies, violin concerto, and tone poems.
11. Copland: ballets
12. Mahler: symphonies, orchestral songs.

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Follow Ups Full Thread

Topic - Your 10 most important classical composers of the XX century, in the order of significance? nt - sser2 18:55:36 01/19/08 (36)

Several of these "Top 10" lists make sense, but... - Abel McCain 08:20:10 01/27/08 (0)

More to consider - Larry I 07:20:03 01/25/08 (2)

RE: More to consider - Bob Neill 06:23:47 01/26/08 (1)

Greenberg Symphony - Larry I 06:23:44 01/28/08 (0)

Little known master symphonists - The Duke 11:34:35 01/23/08 (0)

RE: Your 10 most important classical composers of the XX century, in the order of significance? nt - bruckner 20:42:46 01/22/08 (0)

RE: Your 10 most important classical composers of the XX century, in the order of significance? nt - Bob Neill 13:37:19 01/21/08 (0)

RE: Your 10 most important classical composers of the XX century, in the order of significance? nt - Brian Cheney 10:33:15 01/21/08 (0)

RE: Your 10 most important classical composers of the XX century, in the order of significance? nt - Luciano,IT 06:34:56 01/21/08 (2)

I noticed your alternative spelling, Igor liked... - gd 16:32:31 01/22/08 (1)

RE: I noticed your alternative spelling, Igor liked... - Todd Krieger 21:20:55 01/22/08 (0)

RE: Your 10 most important classical composers of the XX century, in the order of significance? nt - Amphissa 19:53:39 01/20/08 (0)

RE: Your 10 most important classical composers of the XX century, in the order of significance? nt - kal1971@juno.com 18:46:50 01/20/08 (0)

RE: Your 10 most important classical composers of the XX century, in the order of significance? nt - Todd Krieger 16:15:27 01/20/08 (0)

The point here is your personal preferences. - sser2 15:02:27 01/20/08 (12)

I WAS ABout to throw something heavy at my computer................... - Tom B. 20:36:49 01/20/08 (2)

Schoenberg's my No. 1 - Feanor 12:41:44 01/21/08 (0)

Yes, if one judges from attention from the critics, he is the #1. - sser2 21:54:56 01/20/08 (0)

I feel like Obama, I thought you said "important" - gd 20:07:40 01/20/08 (8)

RE: I feel like Obama, I thought you said "important" - Bob Neill 18:05:04 01/22/08 (7)

Really good points. - gd 20:13:05 01/23/08 (1)

The "good enough" composer - David Aiken 00:06:37 01/24/08 (0)

A tentative disagreementâ€¦ - David Aiken 18:44:09 01/23/08 (4)

You're not the only guy who can write long posts. - Bob Neill 17:29:46 01/27/08 (3)

RE: You're not the only guy who can write long posts. - David Aiken 12:25:20 01/28/08 (1)

I think most would find it easier to place a novelist who didn't produce work in any of the other areas onlist - Bob Neill 13:35:52 01/28/08 (0)

P.S. - Bob Neill 17:35:42 01/27/08 (0)

Not my 10 most important classical composers of the XX century, and not in any order - David Aiken 13:23:12 01/20/08 (0)

Not necessarily my favorites - gd 12:27:09 01/20/08 (0)

10 is way too limited. - Rick W 09:23:37 01/20/08 (0)

RE: Your 10 most important classical composers of the XX century, in the order of significance? nt - risabet 23:02:14 01/19/08 (0)

Stravinsky, Schoenberg, Cage, Prokofiev, Mahler, Ravel, Bartok, Ives, Strauss, Adams - Bambi B 21:24:31 01/19/08 (4)

good list (nt) - Thornhill 17:37:24 01/20/08 (0)

John Adams - jazz1 00:33:23 01/20/08 (1)

If you get a chance... - D Harvey 15:30:20 01/28/08 (0)

And remember - kavakidd 22:03:22 01/19/08 (0)

Follow Ups

You're not the only guy who can write long posts. - Bob Neill 17:29:46 01/27/08 (3)

RE: You're not the only guy who can write long posts. - David Aiken 12:25:20 01/28/08 (1)

I think most would find it easier to place a novelist who didn't produce work in any of the other areas onlist - Bob Neill 13:35:52 01/28/08 (0)

P.S. - Bob Neill 17:35:42 01/27/08 (0)

You're not the only guy who can write long posts.

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