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Classical Court From Perotin to Prokofiev (and beyond), performed by Caruso to Khatia, it's all here. |
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Classical Court From Perotin to Prokofiev (and beyond), performed by Caruso to Khatia, it's all here. |
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In Reply to: You'll have to elaborate on your first sentence posted by Chris from Lafayette on April 13, 2021 at 11:01:33:
I'm OK with earlier styles of stringed instruments---they were not too bad.
But a clarinet (particularly), oboe or flute in 1800 was simply lousy compared to the modern style, which was mostly perfected by the French in the mid 1800's.
Earlier ones were--to be blunt--out of tune and honky on many notes, and moreover today there isn't the teaching or performance practice history for people to get really good at them to overcome their limitations.
And after Boehm and Buffet invented the system of modern flutes and clarinets, there wasn't much need to change them significantly after that, so for 170 years they've been accepted by musicians and composers as is---unlike the situation before.
I don't have much comment on the bassoon but it needs an overhaul.
I think brass instruments gained ability to play more keys chromatically with new technology but I don't know if their tone quality/intonation correctness improved as much.
So I'm OK with 1780 or 1800 stringed instruments but with modern winds.
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Follow Ups Full ThreadTopic - Wow! Here's a reviewer who really knows what the story is with HIP! - Chris from Lafayette 02:18:23 04/13/21 (124)
- I could not agree more with him - Analog Scott 17:48:17 04/14/21 (28)
- It's a good thing Monteverdi, Bach, Mozart and Beethoven didn't know that! nt - oldmkvi 08:51:14 04/15/21 (17)
- What makes you think they didn't know that? - Analog Scott 13:24:15 04/15/21 (4)
- Well, history is history, but I'm curious... - SE 04:50:18 04/16/21 (3)
- "I have read that Beethoven wanted more from the keyboard instruments of his time" - Chris from Lafayette 11:42:16 04/16/21 (0)
- Histoy is sketchy at best and rarely tells us what people actually thought - Analog Scott 07:11:15 04/16/21 (1)
- Thanks for the reply. n/t - SE 12:08:51 04/16/21 (0)
- That very point was addressed (at least with respect to Bach and Beethoven). . . - Chris from Lafayette 10:08:56 04/15/21 (0)
- Yes, but the quickest way to getting a spot on the Sunday morning news shows is to reduce a complex, diverse - jdaniel@jps.net 09:04:05 04/15/21 (10)
- On my worst days, I feel like we are living in the age of Anti-Enlightenment... - SE 05:01:00 04/16/21 (9)
- Oh - you mean like with "cancel culture"? There's a thread about that further below! [nt] ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 11:46:28 04/16/21 (4)
- You want to cancel HIP, right? : ) I'm in awe of your confidence and certainty, but.... - jdaniel@jps.net 12:36:08 04/16/21 (3)
- Funny that you can't seem to make the distinction between. . . - Chris from Lafayette 16:29:04 04/16/21 (2)
- "Carefully selected the aspects of HIP that I object to." (Excuse me as I move out of the way of the pendulum! - jdaniel@jps.net 16:44:28 04/16/21 (1)
- Urtext scores, correct performance of embellishments. . . - Chris from Lafayette 17:01:35 04/16/21 (0)
- "They're coming for your drums!!" Sounds familiar, doesn't it? : ) - jdaniel@jps.net 08:31:27 04/16/21 (3)
- OK, jdaniel - that WAS clever! [nt] ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 11:45:01 04/16/21 (2)
- Have to admit, it still makes me laugh. HIP News: Chris Reports, Chris Decides. : ) nt - jdaniel@jps.net 12:37:54 04/16/21 (1)
- (That was less clever) [nt] - Chris from Lafayette 16:29:52 04/16/21 (0)
- After everything in this long thread, I think we need a HIP replacement!... - SE 21:58:30 04/14/21 (9)
- RE: You rang? - B. Scarpia 07:27:55 04/15/21 (0)
- Better yet, a Marais Moment! - jdaniel@jps.net 06:21:30 04/15/21 (5)
- So I watched that video, and what did I see and hear? - Chris from Lafayette 12:07:14 04/15/21 (4)
- may I humbly offer this from the maestro of the gamba... - oldvinyl 20:12:23 04/15/21 (0)
- I never said *all* HIP performances use vibrato, that's your binary thing going on again. Sorry you found it - jdaniel@jps.net 12:34:28 04/15/21 (2)
- No reason for you to put words in my mouth - Chris from Lafayette 12:59:29 04/15/21 (1)
- Well, I just bought that whole Marais Ricercar set. Wouldn't have stumbled across it had you not posted. : ) - jdaniel@jps.net 18:04:34 04/15/21 (0)
- RE: After everything in this long thread, I think we need a HIP replacement!... - Analog Scott 00:28:39 04/15/21 (0)
- RE: After everything in this long thread, I think we need a HIP replacement!... - rivervalley817 22:12:24 04/14/21 (0)
- RE: Wow! Here's a reviewer who really knows what the story is with HIP! - dgaapc7 14:34:45 04/14/21 (3)
- Taxes submitted earlier today - and accepted! (Hopefully one less thing to worry about!) [nt] - Chris from Lafayette 01:39:52 04/16/21 (0)
- Ah, the IRS...talk about an ancient instrument!:-)... - SE 21:55:58 04/14/21 (1)
- RE: Ah, the IRS...talk about an ancient instrument!:-)... - rivervalley817 22:06:00 04/14/21 (0)
- Either I like the sound, or I don't. - peppy m. 16:58:26 04/13/21 (32)
- +1 LOL! TOO funny! (nt) - TWB 19:44:02 04/13/21 (31)
- I'm neither HIP or Modern. I just like sound. - peppy m. 09:28:37 04/14/21 (30)
- Agreed (nt) - TWB 15:58:22 04/14/21 (0)
- So. . . do you like performances from elementary school orchestras? - Chris from Lafayette 11:47:25 04/14/21 (28)
- Do you like the corporate sound of Fischer's Budapest? Well-executed but mostly bland and charmless? - jdaniel@jps.net 05:49:33 04/15/21 (15)
- No non sequitur at all - Chris from Lafayette 10:16:44 04/15/21 (4)
- Point was that the "unique" sound of school bands is an issue of poor execution, (on modern instruments, : ) - jdaniel@jps.net 10:38:57 04/15/21 (3)
- As I mentioned below. . . - Chris from Lafayette 12:01:49 04/15/21 (0)
- And BTW, did you really think that Marais piece above was "soulless "? - jdaniel@jps.net 11:06:55 04/15/21 (1)
- I think you've chosen wisely to bow out! ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 11:43:34 04/15/21 (0)
- His performances are soulless IMO... (nt) - TWB 09:58:45 04/15/21 (9)
- Which performances? Which parts? What constitutes soullessness? [nt] - Chris from Lafayette 10:18:36 04/15/21 (8)
- Follow Fischer's Mahler by Kubelik's, or his Beethoven by...dare I say it? Sch...... : ) nt - jdaniel@jps.net 10:56:50 04/15/21 (7)
- You're hardly making the point you think you're making - Chris from Lafayette 12:25:51 04/15/21 (6)
- My point is that Kubelik and that other guy, two among many, capture the spirit of the music better without - jdaniel@jps.net 13:05:21 04/15/21 (1)
- OK - I don't have a problem with that - Chris from Lafayette 13:10:13 04/15/21 (0)
- Just taking the Budapest string section alone, imho they don't seem very unified in purpose or direction - jdaniel@jps.net 12:53:21 04/15/21 (3)
- Well, that's another one of your singular opinions again - Chris from Lafayette 13:07:37 04/15/21 (2)
- I meant to delete that post, as such carelessly-tossed blanket statements aren't worthy of a forum like this, - jdaniel@jps.net 15:03:11 04/15/21 (1)
- I agree with you that the LAPO string section is excellent - Chris from Lafayette 01:34:06 04/16/21 (0)
- I'll probably like some things in almost any performance... - peppy m. 17:30:58 04/14/21 (10)
- Agreed. But that means actually listening to and living with the music, as opposed to writing about a snippet - jdaniel@jps.net 06:17:53 04/15/21 (4)
- Oh! The irony! - Chris from Lafayette 10:22:36 04/15/21 (2)
- We've been through this before as well. Tell me again that YouTube is incapable of capturing tempo, rubato, - jdaniel@jps.net 10:52:57 04/15/21 (1)
- Hmm. . . you're pegging the bum-rap meter - Chris from Lafayette 12:55:57 04/15/21 (0)
- Why couldn't it be either thing ? - peppy m. 08:58:14 04/15/21 (0)
- Hey - if "anything goes" works for you, who am I to try to change your mind? [nt] ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 01:44:06 04/15/21 (4)
- Actually, it's less about "anything goes" and more about "endless possibility"... - peppy m. 08:53:06 04/15/21 (3)
- Some of us don't need to be helped or forced [nt] ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 10:25:10 04/15/21 (2)
- True ! Some of us have made up our minds in advance. - peppy m. 15:53:30 04/15/21 (1)
- I wouldn't know [nt] ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 01:35:34 04/16/21 (0)
- "Yes sir, and where would you like all these shovels delivered?" nt - tinear 16:06:01 04/14/21 (0)
- Why do you care? Every Baroque Group un the Bay Area is HIP, incl - oldmkvi 12:10:12 04/13/21 (31)
- That is exactly why some of us care! - Analog Scott 17:50:41 04/14/21 (1)
- Try Latry's "Bach to the Future." It'll blow the bag of peanuts right out of your hand. : ) - jdaniel@jps.net 21:28:23 04/14/21 (0)
- RE: Want a laugh? Google HIP Clarinet (yt) - B. Scarpia 13:53:02 04/13/21 (0)
- Sinfonia Baroque? You mean PHILHARMONIA Baroque? - Chris from Lafayette 13:02:44 04/13/21 (27)
- RE: Sinfonia Baroque? You mean PHILHARMONIA Baroque? - Mali 14:22:07 04/13/21 (26)
- It might have run it's course for HIM... - SE 14:45:07 04/13/21 (25)
- RE: It might have run it's course for HIM... - Mali 19:57:31 04/13/21 (11)
- Well, if you like dead, vibratoless string tone and toy pianos. . . - Chris from Lafayette 01:45:42 04/14/21 (10)
- Not dead to me, but I draw the line at keyboard instruments. - Mali 13:43:18 04/14/21 (6)
- Angela Hewitt vs. a harpsichordist? OMG! What a Scylla and Charybdis! [nt] ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 16:42:21 04/14/21 (5)
- RE: Angela Hewitt vs. a harpsichordist? OMG! What a Scylla and Charybdis! [nt] ;-) - Mali 18:36:52 04/14/21 (4)
- Chris is like Puck, and that is OK... - SE 03:15:25 04/16/21 (1)
- "Hewitt is working on Beethoven's Hammerklavier" - Chris from Lafayette 11:50:11 04/16/21 (0)
- Chris is not wishy-washy on anything musical... - srl1 18:44:48 04/14/21 (1)
- "he would actually have to listen to it before he writes the review" - Chris from Lafayette 01:46:28 04/15/21 (0)
- If the only 5-channel keyboard release available happened to feature a "toy piano," I'm sure you'd find a way - jdaniel@jps.net 08:34:14 04/14/21 (2)
- Nope - even I have standards! [nt] ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 11:28:45 04/14/21 (0)
- :-) /n - Ivan303 09:19:33 04/14/21 (0)
- C'mon, SE! Why do you need a viola da gamba when you can use a nice cello? [nt] ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 18:50:12 04/13/21 (12)
- Um...infinitely more expressive timbres? (And that's your cue to claim they're all ugly.) - jdaniel@jps.net 19:41:40 04/13/21 (11)
- You know, back in the distant past (before the more extreme strictures of HIP arose). . . - Chris from Lafayette 01:54:08 04/14/21 (10)
- So you're saying that no viola da gamba player today employs vibrato? nt - jdaniel@jps.net 07:46:08 04/14/21 (9)
- You know some who do? I'm always willing to be learned! - Chris from Lafayette 11:31:51 04/14/21 (8)
- We've been through this before. I even posted YouTube vids so you could see as well as hear. Nt - jdaniel@jps.net 11:39:10 04/14/21 (7)
- I must not have been impressed [nt] ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 11:51:09 04/14/21 (6)
- A finger either jiggles or it doesn't, and you seem to be the resident connoisseur of body parts that jiggle. - jdaniel@jps.net 11:57:39 04/14/21 (5)
- It's a terrible responsibility, but somebody has to do it! [nt] ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 16:46:57 04/14/21 (4)
- Honestly, a true and worthy purpose for a Moderator... - SE 22:04:51 04/14/21 (3)
- RE: Honestly, a true and worthy purpose for a Moderator... - rivervalley817 22:09:20 04/14/21 (2)
- Why not? Honestly, location should never be a priority... - SE 05:09:36 04/15/21 (1)
- RE: Why not? Honestly, location should never be a priority... - rivervalley817 10:26:57 04/15/21 (0)
- Ain't there an extension? nt - tinear 10:01:25 04/13/21 (2)
- RE: Ain't there an extension? nt - Ivan303 10:44:00 04/13/21 (1)
- Awkward as hell to play, it appears... nt - tinear 10:47:36 04/13/21 (0)
- Binary thinking goes faster than Turbo Tax. : ) To which HIP school, era, style is the reviewer referring? n - jdaniel@jps.net 07:23:42 04/13/21 (1)
- I think there's a reference to 18th century, early 19th century - Chris from Lafayette 10:45:30 04/13/21 (0)
- The Reviewer doesn't know how to think... - SE 04:48:53 04/13/21 (18)
- You'll have to elaborate on your first sentence - Chris from Lafayette 11:01:33 04/13/21 (11)
- early wind instruments sucked when blown - DrChaos 16:50:44 04/14/21 (0)
- No matter... - SE 14:35:30 04/13/21 (9)
- You...you mean...there's a middle ground? Not allowed! nt - jdaniel@jps.net 21:04:28 04/13/21 (7)
- That's right, jdaniel - for those who listen with docile contentedness, anything goes [nt] ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 02:02:57 04/14/21 (6)
- Listen to what with docile contentedness? nt - jdaniel@jps.net 07:44:58 04/14/21 (5)
- To HIP (You lose the thread or something?) [nt] ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 11:33:23 04/14/21 (4)
- Which HIP? It's 70 years old with many branches, hybrids, styles, etc. from orthodox to cafeteria Catholic - jdaniel@jps.net 11:54:33 04/14/21 (3)
- Read the thread - I think I've defined my terms - Chris from Lafayette 17:06:58 04/14/21 (2)
- First of all, "toy pianos" would be too modern for, say, "Marais," right? (Not all HIP employs Toy Pianos.) - jdaniel@jps.net 20:20:42 04/14/21 (1)
- Maybe you're having a hallucination that we've established that? - Chris from Lafayette 01:17:37 04/15/21 (0)
- Very good, SE! - I guess it just depends on what one considers as. . . - Chris from Lafayette 18:46:52 04/13/21 (0)
- Hear, hear! nt - tinear 10:03:09 04/13/21 (0)
- +1 While not much of a fan of the fortepiano - Ivan303 08:01:36 04/13/21 (4)
- Same. As for Harpsichords, there are ugly-sounding ones and very beautiful-sounding ones. nt - jdaniel@jps.net 08:35:26 04/13/21 (3)
- Sure, I know about the clangsichord and the plucksichord - but which is which? [nt] ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 13:22:50 04/13/21 (2)
- So you're saying that they all sound bad? nt - jdaniel@jps.net 07:49:07 04/14/21 (1)
- You're right that some sound better than others, but. . . - Chris from Lafayette 11:37:42 04/14/21 (0)
- Wink wink, nod nod. Wonderful review! (nt) - krisjan 03:45:31 04/13/21 (1)
- Only certain posters here, like you, have the erudition to recognize what they're reading! [nt] ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 13:09:10 04/13/21 (0)
Follow Ups
- early wind instruments sucked when blown - DrChaos 16:50:44 04/14/21 (0)
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