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In Reply to: Re: Subjective and Objective posted by Jon Risch on January 4, 2002 at 10:33:43:
You claim I am questioning JbC's subjective impressions with objective criteria.It is amazing to me how this idea got into your head.
Shouldn't be amazing at all to anyone that can read and comprehend simple English.
You started out with:
Any system...
Do mean to say that you do not understand the meaning of the word "any"? Any would be my system. Or your system. Or anyone else's system. Or everyone's system. Without exclusion.
So as soon as you used the word "any" you inherently claim that what follows is universal and applies to everyone without exclusion. Which makes it an objective claim.
I was speaking of MY subjective impressions, and those of other audiophiles and music lovers, vs. his subjective impressions.
You were asserting those subjective impressions as OBJECTIVE FACT right at the moment you chose to use the word "any" and thereby making a claim of universality which is ipso facto NOT subjective.
You're either being intellectually dishonest and trying to have it both ways or you're having trouble with the meanings of simple, everyday English words.
I was speaking of the impression that his posted comments gave to others regarding his system.
You mean the knee-jerk prejudice his comments drew from others.
If you look back, you'll see that his mentioning an equalizer was purely ancillary to what he was actually saying. But as is all too common here, some people seem wholly incapable of addressing what's actually said and insead choose to go off on some knee-jerk tangent in some pathetic attempt to impugn.
Here's Jitter's original comment (which was just a minor portion of a larger post):
I can also by-pass the equalizer in my stereo system and at first it sounds awful. In fifteen minutes, I cannot tell you what exactly sounded so awful, I just remember that it was different.
Penguin WHOLLY IGNORED EVERYTHING else in that post and instead zeroed in on the ancillary mention of an equalizer in his system. Here's the entirety of Pengin's reply:
You said it yourself. If you need an equalizer your problems are bigger than cables.
Oh, he also changed the topic to "I just located your problem Jitter !!!!"
It's pretty obvious from this and subsequent posts in that thread that Penguin and others simply don't like Jitter for some unknown personal reasons and were just looking for some chink in his armor with which to launch a prejudicial attack in an attempt to discredit him because he didn't share their particular dogma.
There was no simple sharing of divergent opinions, but rather an intolerant judgement being passed on him. There was nothing even remotely resembling something along the lines of "Yeah? You're using an equalizer? I haven't found one that I've been satisfied with." This is what the discussion SHOULD have resembled in any forum which claims to be a place where people can share their personal experiences without fear of being brow-beat by those who don't share those same personal experiences.
I did so by clearly stating that this was based on my years of experience.
Doesn't matter what you based it on. It's still an objective claim.
If I make the objective claim:
All poodles are dogs.
And I follow up with:
And I base that on my years of experience wherein all poodles have been dogs.
That does NOT change the fact that my claim is still an objective claim. It's simply offering evidence in support of that claim. And while that evidence may be of a subjective nature, the fact remains that it's being ASSERTED as an objective claim.
I did not feel it necessary to also state that these were my subjective impressions, opinions or experiences, and I do not feel that ANYONE should have to do so on an audio chat board. Such a place is, by definition, a place where people are airing their opinions and experiences.
I agree. But when one makes an unequivocal assertion of objective fact, as you did when you opted for the nonexclusive word "any", then they've deliberately chosen to leave that assumptive realm of subjectivity and all bets are off.
How this magically turned into objective criteria in your mind is the real mystery.
The real mystery is why you apparently haven't a grasp of the meaning of the word "any." Of course I don't really think you're that daft. Personally I think you're just trying to worm out of a situation you got yourself into by letting prejudice, spite and perhaps a bit of paranoia get the better of you.
I mean, you do spend a good amount of time over on Audio Review where Mtrycrafts and others are constantly going at you. Is it not at all possible that you could be taking some of that frustration out undeservedly on people here? When people come home from a bad day at work, it's not uncommon for them to take some of it out on the family.
Additionally, the equalizer itself is not the real issue, it is the fact that he said his system sounded BAD when he bypassed the EQ. This would raise a red flag to anyone who has been fiddling with high performance audio for many years.
Actually he said "awful." But the key here is "he said." How do have any gague as to just what constitutes "awful" to him? For all you know, what sounds "awful" to him might sound great to you.
As for red flags, people who have been fidding around with high performance audio for many years fairly routinely use words such as "awful" to describe things they try in their systems that others who have been fiddling around with high performance audio for many years say sound fantastic.
In fact people routinely use interconnects, speaker cables and tubes as effective "tone controls" as this gives them a means to tune their systems to THEIR PERSONAL LIKING seeing as most gear doesn't come equipped with tone controls, equalizers, etc. and if these people ever did use such things, the lynch mob here would soon have them strung up and hanging from a tree.
"This cable sounds too bright." "This cable sounds too dark." "This cable is juuuuust right." What the hell's the difference if someone achieves the same result and satisfaction with a LITERAL tone control?
Would you tell the people using interconnects, speaker cables and tubes as tone controls that if their systems sound bad with certain interconnects, speaker cables or tubes then their systems are not going to be set up very well or have a high amount of resolving power as you insisted with someone using a literal tone control? Would you be crawling up their colons like you have Jitter's?
You can not fix poor room acoustics or a poor speaker with an EQ...
Certainly an EQ can't fix EVERYTHING, but they can fix some things, even some rather obnoxious things, and they can get you closer to what ultimately pleases you. And isn't that what we're all really after?
and if his system sounds BAD without benefit of the EQ, then he has either really poor room acoustics OR the speaker itself is not doing so great. Or the system would not sound bad without EQ, it would just sound mediocre or less than great, etc. Just as a reminder, these opinions are all based on my subjective impressions from working with EQ's, and playback systems, over the years.
And what of those whose systems sound bad without the benefit of certain specific interconnects, speaker cables and/or tubes?
I make a strong effort to do a fair job of moderating, and there are times when I reign in my personal feelings or POV because of that. I refrain from posting, or perhaps, more carefully word my reply. I also try very hard to avoid censorship in the form of deletions, etc.
However, I am charged with the responsibility of trying to keep order on a moderated yet public forum, not an easy task by any means. Let he who is perfect and free from any flames or attacks come and cast the first stone.Yes. And when one is charged with the responsibility of trying to keep order on a moderated yet public forum, it's expected that they not be among those throwing gasoline onto the fire.
I suggest that your posted concerns are misplaced, and not really on target, since I was NOT doing anything like what you state that I was. Additionally, I would suggest that you reconsider your choice of language and the use of inappropriate innuendo in posting on AA.
And I suggest otherwise. *shrug*
se
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Follow Ups
- Re: Subjective and Objective - Steve Eddy 22:16:07 01/04/02 (0)
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