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In Reply to: WARNING!! posted by NEAR SOTA on November 27, 2002 at 08:57:39:
My experience is limited with Cryo - I only did an immersion test to see if it changed anything. It definitely broke the conductors. Very poor sound. LRC measurements did not measurably change. This is not the accepted method, so I can only conclude that this method breaks things.The jury is still out on whether this treatment actually improves things and if so, why. The head of the materials science Cryo lab at NIST is a good friend of mine and he says there is no reason to believe that there are any electrical benefits, however he has not specifically looked for this either.
Follow Ups:
If you look at objectively there should be improvement when using the cyro process because there is improvement in tensile strength which means the molecules are structured differently.Maybe more compact and aligned tighter.It also must take O2 out which would be better for the collision of electrons.
Changing the Lattice structure does not necessarily result in an improvement. Depends on how you change it. In general, if the structure is more orderly, the electrical performance should be better. The improvement in tensile strength for steel that is cryo treated comes because you have jumbled the lattice, much like what happens when you bend steel. Eventually it becomes so hard that it fractures.
""Changing the Lattice structure does not necessarily result in an improvement. Depends on how you change it""Agreed.
""In general, if the structure is more orderly, the electrical performance should be better.""
Although this seems common sense, I've not seen data to support that on silver wires, or copper wires. Just anecdotal evidence.
""The improvement in tensile strength for steel that is cryo treated comes because you have jumbled the lattice""
The transformation from FFC to BCT lattice structure within steel is temperature dependent. At room temperature, the process stops due to surface energy and lattice energy. Dropping the temperature makes the BCT lattice configuration preferred, producing more martensite.
""much like what happens when you bend steel""
Work hardening is a different effect from cryo-induced BCT martensite formation.
""Eventually it becomes so hard that it fractures.""
It's not the hardness that does it, it's the formation of stress concentrators, which cause the formation of cracks at boundaries.
Cheers, John
Seems to be that the molecular structure (after treatment) is simply more homogeneous, not more tightly aligned; the molecules are compressed during cooling then during warmup the material undergoes expansion such that the molecules expand like raisins in dough when cooking in the oven; this expansion results in a more uniform distribution of the molecules. The molecular structure, at least in part, was non-uniform to begin with because the manufacturing processes such as stamping, drawing, rolling, cutting, etc. cause gross irregularites in the molecular structure of the materials - "clumping," "stretching," whatever...
""Seems to be that the molecular structure (after treatment) is simply more homogeneous, not more tightly aligned; the molecules are compressed during cooling then during warmup the material undergoes expansion such that the molecules expand like raisins in dough when cooking in the oven; this expansion results in a more uniform distribution of the molecules.""It may be that the lattice structure has changed. FCC to BCT or BCC for example. That would require x-ray diffraction studies to confirm. There is also the possibility that the molecular arrangement of the metal is unchanged. Martensite formation in steel would contradict that. Unknown what silver, copper do.
""The molecular structure, at least in part, was non-uniform to begin with because the manufacturing processes such as stamping, drawing, rolling, cutting, etc. cause gross irregularites in the molecular structure of the materials - "clumping," "stretching," whatever...""Agreed. With supers, we rely on that for creation of pinning sites to stop magnetic flux creepage. Makes for better superconductor performance.
Cheers, John
The (sonic) performance of plastics appears quite improved by cryo treatment, even simple freezing, and many metals - copper, silver, steel, aluminum, gold, brass, as well as glass and whatever metals are used in electron tubes, there may be some things going on with these audio apps not documented; hard to pinpoint the mechanism/cause, not hard at all to "prove" the effect...
""The (sonic) performance of plastics appears quite improved by cryo treatment, even simple freezing, and many metals - copper, silver, steel, aluminum, gold, brass, as well as glass and whatever metals are used in electron tubes, there may be some things going on with these audio apps not documented; hard to pinpoint the mechanism/cause, not hard at all to "prove" the effect... ""Plastics..don't know, have only destroyed them, or have seen no effect (not looking for any). My experience is primarily concerned with survival of the dielectric withstanding capability.
Key point.. "may be some things going on". For structural apps, where the properties cold/warm were needed, much testing was done. Unfortunately, electrical properties of metals through cold treatment has received less attention.
But, definitely hard to pinpoint the mechanism, and also hard to prove the effect (by prove, I mean measured using equipment). Alas, a flaw in our current abilities to measure.
- plastics, as in teflon and the polycarbonate mat'l use in CD; the improvement of physical characteristics of plastics by cryogenics is well known/documented...not to worry about dielectric...
"more uniform distribution of the molecules"
Are you saying that you just DUMPED the components into the liquid nitrogen?
Yes - It was quite a shock to them. Probably similar to quenching them in cold water when red-hot. I just wanted to see if any measureable changes took place. The sound definitely got worse, but the only measurement that showed a difference was the TDT. The reflections were more pronounced and higher frequency after the cryo immersion. L,C, R did not change at all. This is all documented on my webpage.
""The reflections were more pronounced and higher frequency after the cryo immersion.""Did you mean "at" higher frequency?
""L,C, R did not change at all.""
All being measured at 10Khz, or 60 Hz,? Or whatever frequency your meter uses. What was the freq?
But did L and C change at different frequencies? Do you have the capability of testing L, C at different freq's?
""This is all documented on my webpage""What webpage?
.
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