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In Reply to: John C, you consistently amaze me posted by John Escallier on November 19, 2002 at 05:34:50:
So I'll ask again. Is it possible "110dB below 50mV" is below audible for humans?And I state again...Please refrain from your typical attack posture. I'm not attacking you.
Follow Ups:
would you two give it a rest? This is not productive. I would expect the two of you to have alot more productive discussions.
My feelings exactly. I would prefer professionalism.
And have tried my best over the last month not to offend Curl, constantly attempting to "toe the line" to placate him.But the constant barrage??? And not only against me.
And the realization that should his "idols" come under scrutiny (Hawksford, Hummel), he should not find it necessary to fire volleys. But, instead, to engage in productive dialogue. His "idols" may not always be right, everybody should keep an open mind.
He always fires, and then, eventually, backs off and gives reasons for his attacks (peer review experience, refereeing problems, lack of credit where credit is due, being attacked in this forum, etc.
One tires of the bipolar attitude. I prefer easy, technical issue based discussion. And not being told to "read a book", "welcome to the real world of physics", and all the rest.
""would you two give it a rest?""I would prefer it that way...But it takes two...I have not, and will not attack unprovoked...But it takes two.
Perhaps the moderator should step in whenever unwarranted, non-technical diatribe starts? But that does raise interesting censureship issues.
Like I said, it takes two...
Thanks dee, bout time somebody said something.. JohnPS. You know, as long as it stays competitive and not personal, that's a very good thing..
This is only one test. IM distortion will give significantly higher numbers. You misunderstand the nature of higher order non-linearity to its effect on listening fatigue. The normal weighting factor is (N-1)! /2 for the harmonic series plug in 7 for N and see what you get.
For everyone:
'The seventh harmonic, however, introduces an element of discord; ... The same is true of the ninth, eleventh, thirteenth and all higher odd-numbered harmonics; these add dissonance as well a shrillness to the fundamental tone, and so introduce a roughness or harshness into the composite sound. The resultant quality of tone is often described as "metallic", since a piece of metal, when struck, emits a sound which is rich in discordant high tones.' 'Science & Music' Sir James Jeans p86 first published in 1937.
""You misunderstand the nature of higher order non-linearity to its effect on listening fatigue.""No, I do not misunderstand that. You misunderstood the question.
So, here it is again: Is it possible 110 dB below 50 mV is below the threshold of human hearing.
I did not ask about 7th harmonic, or the nature of higher order non-linearity and it's effect on listening fatigue. Perhaps it is another thread you are confusing this with?
The testing with a single tone is LESS SENSITIVE. It gives a lower percentage result, than the equivalent multi-toned IM test waveform like the one that Jon Risch uses. However, music IS multi-toned. Unfortunately, my thd meter that does a 90+dB pre-null of the single test tone, cannot null other tones at the same time. If someone will fund me, I will build a multi-toned pre-null box to null a series of spaced tones in front of my HP-3563. Then I can get even larger levels of distortion residuals. However, I am happy enough with differences between connecting wires at the moment.
Now for the rest of you out there. It is true that these levels are low, BUT they are consistent, and change with each type of wire tested. This is real, not guesswork. I am sure that they correlate to subjective listening response to some degree at least, because the 'lousy' wires usually measure much worse than the hi end wires that I have tested.
""Now for the rest of you out there. It is true that these levels are low, BUT they are consistent, and change with each type of wire tested. This is real, not guesswork. I am sure that they correlate to subjective listening response to some degree at least, because the 'lousy' wires usually measure much worse than the hi end wires that I have tested.""There, that wan't hard now, was it??
You have no hard data to back it up your assumption that signals that low are audible, but you express an opinion. That's fine.
And I have no issues with your ability to test signals that low in the "mud", re:real vs guesswork.
No, I just have my ears.
""No, I just have my ears.""And given your experience and status, I would listen to any opinion you would give concerning what you hear.
Technical issues... That's the easy stuff.
nt
My stomach is killin me.Steve, thanks for sittin back and watching.
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