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In Reply to: Re: The Scientific Method posted by NEAR SOTA on November 16, 2002 at 22:33:32:
what might work in your system might not work in anotherThis is the type of statement that is only found in high end audio. In engineering and science, this sort of comment simply does not apply. Either something works, or it doesn't. This might be too black and white for some people but that doesn't prevent it from being true.
Follow Ups:
What might work in my home system will not work in my work system, nor will what works well for speakers in my upstairs system work well for the downstairs system.And that's just for starters.
I'm quite sure if I replaced all the 45 degree horns in a stadium with direct radiators, that wouldn't work very well either. Or if I replaced the direct radiators in a nearfield monitor with horns with a 20Hz cut off :)
I think you're oversimplifying things here.
JJ - Philalethist and Annoyer of Bullies
Some people treat audio cables like flavours. You know, kinda like there's only one or two that will "sound" proper for your system. This kind of thinking propegates the idea that you can give a cable a different name, different color, and a different price and it should sound different.I don't subscribe to that theory and I thought you didn't either.
I don't ascribe to any idea that the sound itself necessarily changes.Having said that, if the owner is happen and likes the "effects", those effects being due solely to the gestalt effect, what's your gripe?
By the way, be careful with those cheap shots, now you're acting just like the other side.,
JJ - Philalethist and Annoyer of Bullies
I always thought that the main goal in Audio was to get to the point of Tranparentcy without coloration.Atleast that is my goal.Detail and accuratcy are also goals.Usually there are tradeoffs in a not so perfect world as when I switchout Woofer's and Tweeter's in my speaker's.Some people choose speaker's like Magnepan's which are known for their transpentcy ,but lack Bass .Some say that they do have Bass ,but not enough slam.
> > > what might work in your system might not work in another < < <> > This is the type of statement that is only found in high end audio. In engineering and science, this sort of comment simply does not apply. Either something works, or it doesn't. This might be too black and white for some people but that doesn't prevent it from being true. < <
What? Because a hammer is ideal for setting a nail, you're saying I should use it for setting screws as well?
Jeff, I agree with you. Mike completely disregards the effect of capacitance and inductunce and how it might interact with a specific piece of equipment, he's a black and white type of guy. However, do try to express your argument more effectively. I don't want to see this forum degrade into shouting.
A hammer is for driving in nails and screwdriver is for driving in screws, regardless of what you are building.
Either a speaker works or it doesn't. I suspect this statement may be too black and white even for you. Maybe you should clearly elaborate on what you mean.
I think what you want is for me to confirm that cables do sound different and I have done the testing to prove that. It appears anything else I say will be met with scorn. So basically, I can't help you.
> > I think what you want is for me to confirm that cables do sound different and I have done the testing to prove that. It appears anything else I say will be met with scorn. So basically, I can't help you. < <You are incorrect. I want you to clarify what you meant by your response to this:
> > > what might work in your system might not work in another < < <
Your response:
> > This is the type of statement that is only found in high end audio. In engineering and science, this sort of comment simply does not apply. Either something works, or it doesn't. This might be too black and white for some people but that doesn't prevent it from being true. < <
Unless I am misunderstanding, this characterizes a particularly unscientific point of view. Science is *not* black and white.
As to my point of view, I believe that all sighted tests are flawed. Note that this does not automatically mean that blind tests are not flawed. It does not mean that blind tests are better indicators of sonic differences.
To date, it has not been demonstrated that a blind test removes *only* biases related to sight. It may seem straightforward that it does because we can't think of what else it might remove, but this is not science. We haven't covered all the bases.
Well the guy that sold me the Canare to use said no one else had trouble with it,but I will guarante that your ears would hear the difference in my system.It seemed to work in everyone elses system he sold it to.
You ever hear of the word synergy?Well that might be the case and how about Digital cables not working with some DAC's to CDP's.Probably a scientific explaination for it though.
In my years as a naval engineer, I have worked with many electronic systems that are infinitely more complex than a home audio system. And this includes miles of every different type of cable you can think of covering the entire frequency spectrum. I know what synergy means and it doesn't apply in any case in my career of naval engineering installations.Like I said, words like synergy only occur in high end audio, nowhere else in the engineering or scientific world.
Probably a scientific explaination for it though.
I would imagine that you are using a raw data type of thing when you were an eng. in the Navy and comparing it to what Human discernment is when it comes to heraing in audio.The 2 are totally different.X's & 0"s are alot different than trying to ditinguish what humans can hear.
What is your theory for Whale beachings?No one as yet to explain that one,but it is a similar thing in my mind. We just do not know enough of why people's sensitivity to what they either hear or think they hear.
Well Mike why will a digital cable not keep a lock on my ART DAC?I firmly believe that there is a difference in cables that cannot be or has no way of being measured by electronic Measureing equiptment at this time,but JC I think has a spectrum analysis device or something that he is working with at this time to try to equate differences in cables if I read a post of his discussion with OLE correctly.
We have only just progressed to the point of being able to take a picture of an atom having electrons circleing a nucleus and being able to prove some of the Theories of Einsteins as being fact.We are just scratching the surface on alot of things that were theories.Even the Cosmos are in in Debate,but we are getting closer to understanding what actually might have happened to put us here.
I still think that the more sensitive the equiptment the more noticable the difference will be when inserting Cables or anything else.Especially speaker's that are sensitive.NEAR's are known to be revealing to what might change down the line to the source.Including the source.They are more sensitive then the Maggies I am selling and that is a stretch.They are more transparent and I always thought Maggies were the most transparent speaker's I had ever had and these are box speaker's.Martin Logans did not mesh well with the Bass drivers last time I listend to them,but I knew what I heard and could tell the Bass was really not omni directional like it should be.
You know something that really turns me off.That is when I go to a salon and they have a sub playing and I can tell where the Bass is eminating from.Tells me that the dealer or sales person really does not know much about setting up a good demo.
I recently went to hear B&W's and the sales person forgot he had a sub going behind me.It was not apparent at first ,but I turned around because I could swear there was one going.In fact before he played my test CD's he turned it off he knew it was on because of where he was standing and I was in the seated sweetspot where I was not suppose to beable to tell.He might have been testing me.It was set right though. It meshed well with the main speaker's per se.Therer are things which cannot be explained at this time,but that does not mean theirs not a diff.
What I appear to be measuring is a 'crossover' distortion in a piece of wire. To be sure, this is only ONE test for differences in wires. This was discovered about 15-20 years ago by Dr. Van den Hul and is on his website. Look it up! For at least 5 years, I have found this measurement just possible with my original test equipment. My biggest problem was noise. NOW, I can signal average the noise out. This is what 'Stereophile' should do as well, when they make amp measurements, especially with tubes. They would find much lower distortion at low levels than what they are showing on their graphs at this time.
nt
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