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In Reply to: Re: The Scientific Method posted by Phil Tower on November 17, 2002 at 05:02:04:
Yes,I made it that far.A thing to consider is that Audio is one of the most Subjective subjects one can analyise.It is not as clearcut for anyone.Taste plays a most important factor.An example is that I recently bought a few runs of Canare Cable to get me through till I could get something better on the advice from a poster that I confer with weekly.After getting it and listening for a few months I was missing detail in Vocal's to an extent that it was intolerable.I wrote the guy that sold them and told him that they could not be used from my source CDP to Passive Preamp.While they did good from the Amp to Pre(ok!) they absolutely sucked from the source to Pre.He wrote back that I was the first to inform him of the issue.I was not trying to rain on his parade,but it was so apparent that it made me disgusted to listen to them while others really ,supposedly, liked them.Subjective view I guess or they just did not have an ear for good synergy.
As far as the next craze in Audio I guess people are really leaning towards mp3 based systems which are well below the norm for good playback in my estimation.It's a pity to.there is much left to uncover in the audio playback world .
Particular intrest to me is sound reproduction through speaker's.Living in the northeast most of us do not live in spacious palaces like the in the mild weather west or southeast.:-)Small is king here that can fill a room with adequate playback.It's either Mini-Monitors or sleakly designed speaker's and that is why I love the NEAR's in a 3-way.Unobtusive with almost full range sound.Apogees and big ribbons will not work for me and I aim for transparentcy.The NEAR's give it to me in spades.
Now if I can only find that great lowcost SOTA amp!
Follow Ups:
As something that I thought you might find interesting, the following is the only public pronouncement of Dr. Toole I have ever seen regarding cables:“4. [Interview Question] I believe that many audiophiles would get more from their equipment if they would transfer some of their interest and money for audio cables into acoustics and room adaption, but since audio cables seem to be of such big interest, maybe you could share what you think are the relevant qualities when it comes to loudspeaker cables?
[Dr. Toole's Answer] Cables are very profitable products, and that is the main driving force behind them. At a time when advanced technology has reduced the number of tweaks that audio enthusiasts can play with, it is natural that these products should become topics of conversation. I call the most extreme of them "audio jewellery" (sic) , in that they do nothing for the audio system except make the owner feel better or more proud. Superbly performing audio cables can be purchased for very moderate prices. Even "bad" cables, are not bad enough to be audibly worse than the truly nasty things that some rooms or poorly designed loudspeakers can do.”
http://www.sonicdesign.se//tooleinw.htm
I posted this quote at AR a while back
http://forums14.consumerreview.com/crforum?14@121.XJvoaDskeHK^969828@.ef8fe2f
and suggested that, while Dr. Toole is saying (what even a number of subjectivist also say) that many cables are over priced, he also seems to acknowledge that there can be audible differences between cables He compares "superbly performing audio cables" with "bad" cables.
Moreover, when he mentions "bad" cables, he expressly states that they "are not bad enough to be audibly worse than the truly nasty things that some rooms or poorly designed loudspeakers can do.”
Now everyone seems to agree that room acoustics and poorly designed loudspeakers often are extremely important considerations in the quality of audible sonic differences between systems. So if, in Toole's mind, the sonic effects of "bad" cables are on a par with the audible consequences of room acoustics and poorly designed loudspeakers, he must beleive that the audible sonic differences that can exist between certain cables can be pretty significant, at least based on what that particular quote (which, again, is the only public pronouncement of Toole that I have ever found on the issue of cables) seems to suggest.
The main reason I posted that quote is because two AR regulars had flat-out claimed that Toole had tested cables and concluded that the idea that cables could differ as far as audible sonic differences was non-sense. When I asked for substantiation that he had actually conducted such tests and come to that conclusion, they could not provide any proof of their claim.If you care to wade through that particular thread, you will see the sorry discussion that ensued. In my opinion, the level of sophistry that was employed to counter my observation regarding the Toole quote puts to shame us mealy-mouthed, two-faced, weasel attorneys (all labels that some of the good, “rational” objectivists at AR have labeled me with) to shame.
In addition to pointing out the apparently large profit margin enjoyed by upscale cables, Toole stated that the most "extreme" such cables do nothing for the system except make the owners feel good. I interpret the word "extreme" as meaning "expensive." It seems to me that Toole is stating outright that expensive cables do nothing for the system.He then states that "superbly performing cables can be purchased for moderate prices." What is the definition of superbly performing? It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with sound quality. It might simply mean that the cables are well designed and built to last. As far as "bad" cables are concerned, he says nothing about what constitutes a bad cable. Nor did he say that bad cables were responsible for poor sound in any case at all; just that they're not as bad as what comes second. Nothing Toole said contradicts the statement, "Cables have no effect on sound."
In addition to pointing out the apparently large profit margin enjoyed by upscale cables, Toole stated that the most "extreme" such cables do nothing for the system except make the owners feel good. I interpret the word "extreme" as meaning "expensive." It seems to me that Toole is stating outright that expensive cables do nothing for the system.He then states that "superbly performing cables can be purchased for moderate prices." What is the definition of superbly performing? It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with sound quality. It might simply mean that the cables are well designed and built to last. As far as "bad" cables are concerned, he says nothing about what constitutes a bad cable. Nor did he say that bad cables were responsible for poor sound in any case at all; just that they're not as bad as what comes in second.
I've been down this road before, and I'm not going down it again. I've described how I interpret the quote. You're certainly entitled to your interpretation. Others, if they care, can judge for themselves.
As Norm says, you are reading much too much into the little section from the interview with Toole. What you want just is not there; for that matter, I would wish for more detail. Making distinctions does not indicate more than possibilities.Hardly anyone denies that different cables and interconnects may make an audible difference under some circumstances. You have consistently refused to tell me who holds such a position, much less providing any refences, apparently relying on your overall impressions. You keep beating this dead horse (you are not alone in this). However, to reason that because there may be a difference that therefore there must be an audible difference in your system is not valid. One cannot validly reason from possibility to actuality.
I personally see no reason to have equipment where in normal use a line level signal is likely to be much affected by a difference in interconnects. Of course, phono is a different matter, as the FR of many cartridges is aubstantially affected by the capacitance--something I would rather adjust in the preamp. See: I told you there were some conditions where a difference is likely, and I even gave you a well-known example!
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Hardly anyone denies that different cables and interconnects may make an audible difference under some circumstances. You have consistently refused to tell me who holds such a position, much less providing any refences, apparently relying on your overall impressions. You keep beating this dead horse (you are not alone in this).
There are numerous instances on AR where people are unqualifiedly advised that they are wasting their money if they buy cables at any place other than Home Depot, Radio Shack, WalMart, etc. I view that type of advice to be a statement that audible differences do not exist.In addition, a while back, a poster at AR said:
If you do believe they are better, buy nicer cables and YOU will hear a difference..
Mtrycrafts responded:
No. They will only perceive a difference. Hearing and perceiving are not the same events.
http://forums14.consumerreview.com/crforum?14@121.OKxlaCmueEi^974124@.ef86ead/19
He is clearly stating that the only differences between cables are based on perception, not actual hearing. He does not allow for the possibility that the differences perceived were actually heard. Mtrycrafts is generally pretty careful to say anything that will allow someone to pin him down on his beliefs, but occasionally he slips and reveals his true belief on wires.Also see:
http://forums14.consumerreview.com/crforum?13@121.OKxlaCmueEi^974216@.ef8edb8/56
and
http://forums14.consumerreview.com/crforum?13@121.OKxlaCmueEi^974216@.ef8cbea/2
The AR cable forum is far too sluggish for me to look for more.
However, to reason that because there may be a difference that therefore there must be an audible difference in your system is not valid. One cannot validly reason from possibility to actuality.
Please point to one instance where I have ever argued that as a valid proposition?
I personally see no reason to have equipment where in normal use a line level signal is likely to be much affected by a difference in interconnects.
I'll leave it to the techies to address that issue.
So, you have found one person who expresses himself in more absolute terms, and that is Woodman.As for Mtrycrafts, you really should put the question you want to him, not look to where he is making some other point. For one thing, in the little snippet of interchange, you simply misunderstood the point Mtrycrafts was making, which simply about the difference between hearing and perceiving. It was about word usage, if you will. In other words, he pointed out to the poster that it would be better to have said that if a person really believes there is a difference, they will likely perceive one. The context of the discussion assumes a case in which there was really no audible difference.
Now, if you will look into the lists of references Mtry has supplied, you will find some that have documented differences in speaker cables (16 gauge vs. 24 gauge, 30 foot lengths), notably Laurence Greenhill, "Speaker Cables, Can You Hear the Difference," Stereo Review, August 1983, p. 46-51. He has referred to this from time to time in the past.
I suggest you deal with explicit statements on various questions, not some snippet where you think you can mind read his intent. Mtry does not deal with absolutes here, only probabilities. I have discussed this with him sufficiently on the net and in person, I think, to have a better idea of his views than you do.
You quoted me as saying:
"However, to reason that because there may be a difference that therefore there must be an audible difference in your system is not valid. One cannot validly reason from possibility to actuality."
Your reply was:
"Please point to one instance where I have ever argued that as a valid proposition?"
Did I say that you had discussed it? I do point out that you give Dr. Toole's simple division of good and "bad" cables much too much weight, and seem to regard it as an admission of audible differences between cables under ordinary circumstances. But here's something you said:
"Now everyone seems to agree that room acoustics and poorly designed loudspeakers often are extremely important considerations in the quality of audible sonic differences between systems. So if, in Toole's mind, the sonic effects of "bad" cables are on a par with the audible consequences of room acoustics and poorly designed loudspeakers, he must beleive that the audible sonic differences that can exist between certain cables can be pretty significant, at least based on what that particular quote (which, again, is the only public pronouncement of Toole that I have ever found on the issue of cables) seems to suggest."
Now, if that isn't moving from possibility to actuality, I'd like to know what is! And of course, Toole said nothing of the sort.
You want a good case where an interconnect could make a difference? Many phono cartridges are sensitive to capacitance, and interconnects can have different capacitances. I doubt that even Woodman would deny that, as it used to be quite well known and is easily measureable. Personally, I would rather adjust this in the preamp, but one could do it with interconnects. I can add 180 picofarads to the capacitance the phono cartridge sees with a switch in my preamp, and this results in a significant sloping off of the highs, something I do not usually think desirable with most recordings.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Now, if you will look into the lists of references Mtry has supplied, you will find some that have documented differences in speaker cables (16 gauge vs. 24 gauge, 30 foot lengths), notably Laurence Greenhill, "Speaker Cables, Can You Hear the Difference," Stereo Review, August 1983, p. 46-51. He has referred to this from time to time in the past.I just want to respond to this statement and then hopefully draw this to an end. I've seen this statement numerous times, but it is wholly irrelevant, because no one is arguing over this type of disparity. The real debate is whether cables of similar gauge and length can sound different. I have stated the issue that way on numerous occasions. I just get tired of writing it out.
Beyond this, this sub-thread is beginning to remind me too much of AR. I'm at fault for starting it in the first place. I believe that most of the naysayers at AR are extremely biased and narrow-minded. But that is just my opinion and it isn't worth discussing further. I will try not to bring it up again so that we can all focus on real issues.
I do however need to comment on one comment you made:
You want a good case where an interconnect could make a difference?
The only thing I want a good case for is the truth, regardless of where it leads. I am not advocating either side of the Great Cable Debate, because at the scientific level I accept that the yeasayer case has not be established through valid control testing, and until it is we all have to wait and see. Perhaps it never will be established because maybe it can't be. I don't know. I enjoy discussing these issues, but I'm not trying to pick an argument with anyone.
Well, you avoid one point. I have given examples where speaker cables make an audible difference and where interconnects can make an audible difference. These are quite intelligible on rationalist grounds, and so it is quite unfair to characterize the rationalist position as being that cables and interconnects do not make an audible difference under any circumstances. Indeed, to find those circumstances and determine how likely they are to occur is one of the goals. Another consequence is that naysayers is not a very good word to characterize the rationalists.Now, I quite easily recognize your basic position, which has been characterized in various ways. Aristotle called it wonder. Wonder is the beginning of all science and philosophy (Metaphysics I,2). One is faced with alternative trains of reasonings and opinions which seem to be authoritative and correct but which also seem incompatible with each other. From his procedure, that is what Aristotle seems to have meant by wonder. That is, you accept your perceptions about, for example, the sound of cables, but also see that there is no scientific proof that they are correct. So you are in a state of wonder.
This is not something many people find easy to understand. They feel you ought to decide one way or the other, get on with life, etc. They may interpret it as waffling or worse, and there is not much you can do about it. But this does not allow for time to process the matter, nor to find ways of dealing with the various elements. I understand this and I think mtry does as well. Some don't, and there is no use getting too upset about it.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Well, you avoid one point. I have given examples where speaker cables make an audible difference and where interconnects can make an audible difference. These are quite intelligible on rationalist grounds, and so it is quite unfair to characterize the rationalist position as being that cables and interconnects do not make an audible difference under any circumstances.I'm not avoiding anything. I'm just tired of posturing and playing word games.
I don't think your second sentence is a fair statement of my position. When we are talking about audio from a scientific perspective, I consider myself a solid "rationalist". I'm the one that started this thread with the quotes from Carl Sagan.
They feel you ought to decide one way or the other, get on with life, etc. They may interpret it as waffling or worse, and there is not much you can do about it. But this does not allow for time to process the matter, nor to find ways of dealing with the various elements. I understand this and I think mtry does as well. Some don't, and there is no use getting too upset about it.
Now that I've gotten over my ranting and raving, I want to thank you for your understanding of my position. I do believe that you and mtrycrafts understand my position, and have never been judgmental about it. I know I won't win any popularity contests on this site by saying this, but I have a lot of respect for mtrycrafts' position, even though I don't always agree with him, and I don't always agree with his approach or bedside manner (but there are certainly people here who in my opinion have far worse bedside manners that mtrycrafts).With respect to the fact that people like you, Monstrous Mike and Bruce (sorry if I've left anyone out), who regularly post at AR have decided to participate here as well, I see that as extremely positive. This forum isn't going to work, in my opinion, if we don't have all rational viewpoints strongly represented. In addition, I believe that you all are people who are responsible in the way you advance your own positions and are respectful of others (Bruce, I must say, is much like me and sometimes gets fairly worked up about certain issues - but I'm the last one that should be commenting on that type of thing).
I just want to say that regardless of some of the very spirited discussions we have had, and may have in the future, I personally welcome your participation here and certainly hope that it continues.
"advised that they are wasting their money if they buy cables at any place other than Home Depot, Radio Shack, WalMart, etc. I view that type of advice to be a statement that audible differences do not exist."I had just said the same thing in a post.Really funny to see that.:-]
nt
I think he is alluding to a long drawn out post fight on another BB where no one excepts the fact that cables can make a difference.Their point of view is that Dr.O'Toole finds there is no diff in cables.In my system cables do make a difference also.There are other components like speakers and X-overs where differences are much more apparent,but some are not shaken to even consider the issue of cables making a diff in a system whaich is beyond comprehension if you have experimented to see weather there is a diff..
I remember that thread BTW!It is something I treasure for the fighting AR team and their band of renoun-ced!He(O'Toole) has contributed to acoustic research though,That I would not dispute because there is a better or more even playing feild for speaker's coming out of Canada,but I don't think he is the final word in Acoustic Engineering or Testing.
If I am interpreting the article correctly ,there are differences ,but they are small in measure to the other variables.That is enough for me.
I have stated in the past that speakers and associated equiptment might reproduce sound or be more touchy with what cable is being used .It would only make sense.A 70's reciever is different than equiptment of today.Better speced parts,different designs.Amp designs have not changed much,but the components that make them up have.Purity and strict tolerances have improved.
Yeah and it makes a difference to the extent that you either get a MUD sound to getting a Musical sound with good synergy between components.He probably likes Canare COAX as an IC also!
Wish he would explain his views better!
About the best thing I would credit him with is the creation of Lab in the great white north which can give good measurement results so consumers might have a basic reference for numbers.
Yoiu know I still feel the thing that makes wires sound different is the way the old Electrons pass through a conductor,but thats my theory.I did see a program on PBS about conductors where something like that was alluded to.They do have to bounce ariund through the conductor in order for them to make their way to the other side and the way they do that might effect the sound .
This cannot be proven and it is only my conjecture.I do think it should be considerd though.
It seems to me that there is a certain school of thought that believes that all that can ever be known or measured with respect to electromagnetic propagation through wires for audio purposes and with respect to the amplification of audio signals is already known. I don’t have the technical background to pass judgment on the validity of this view point. I do know that I am inherently uncomfortable with a view point that believes that all that can ever be known about any particular subject is already known.This group seems to believe there is more to be discovered:
http://www.its.caltech.edu/~musiclab/music.html
Perhaps something interesting will come from them.BTW, are you the “Abex” of AR fame?
""believes that all that can ever be known or measured with respect to [[[electromagnetic propagation through wires for audio purposes and with respect to the amplification of audio signals]]] is already known""A timeless, classic phrase. Feel free to insert within [[[ ]]];
medicine, automobiles, computers, transistors, information storage, flight, physics, DNA, cancer research, light bulbs, rockets. The list goes on.
"The people who hold there beliefs are usually the first to become roadkill on the technology highway".
Measure all you want, to determine which parameters cause which audible effect will take the brain power. I still think isolating the audible difference takes very little brain power to devise the test configuration, just haven't seen the results though.
""Measure all you want, to determine which parameters cause which audible effect will take the brain power.""Agreed
I still think isolating the audible difference takes very little brain power to devise the test configuration, just haven't seen the results though.""
In the listening enviro, yes. I'm bound and determined to find a test in the electrical enviro.
John Es, have you run Hawksford's MATLAB simulation yet? I hope that you have it available to you, as I don't have it on my computer. Glad to see that you contacted Dr. Hawksford. Worked out well, didn't it?
I also do not have it on my computer. They tend to use a different math package here for magnetic and electrical analysis.Still discussing test techniques, possibilities with him.
It would appear my e-mailer did not forward my reply to you.
That will be rectified.
As for Dr. Hawksford....A very nice, articulate, scientifically minded individual. He is willing to question his methods and understanding of the topic, as well as clearly explain his analysis and reasons..Very pleasant to converse with.
Clearly a person we could all do well to emulate.
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