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NAD 533

207.231.128.7
Posted on March 12, 1999 at 15:17:23
Bill


 
I went on and on last weekend about entry level TT's. Thanks again Oakroot, Werner, et al. I was pretty much set on the MMF2 until I heard about quailty problems. The demo I borrowed had a slightly warped platter, is that a (big) concern? Now today I went to another shop and they have the NAD 533 for $339 (this was also suggested by Jeff B). They don't have demo equipment, preferring that you buy and return if you don't like it. I'm a bit turned off by the look, (the grey formica with black edges seems cheap) but it does come with the Rega RB-250 arm and a Goldring Elektra cart. Ok, my questions are:

How does the MMF2 compare to the 533?
How does the Elektra cart compare with the Elan supplied with the MMF?
If the two tables are comparable, does getting the Rega arm justify (or more than justify) the extra $90?
Will the Elektra cart work with my Yamaha RX-V590 phono stage?

I do appreciate all the intelligent (aka snot-nosed? haha) responses I have recieved. I am a big boy, also. I can handle any and all criticism of my system or spelling.

 

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Re: NAD 533, posted on March 12, 1999 at 15:35:41
Oakroot


 
The down and dirty on the NAD vs the MMF - while the MMF is a suspended design (giving more isolation from feedback) its arm is only adaquate and you cannot upgrade a thing (except for mats and clamps, etc.). What makes the NAD a good buy is that it is essentially a Rega Planar 2 that has an MDF platter instead of an acrylic one (the acrylic one is better but more $$$). In my mind the arm does justify the price difference - as you can take the arm with you if you decide to upgrade the turntable. But I am not sure there will be a HUGE difference in performance between the two (assuming the MMF has no QC problems and is funtioning properly). One other advantage to the NAD is that you will be able to put a much better cartridge on that arm without losing performance - there is a definite limit to the performance capabilities of the MMF (I wouldn't put much over a $300 cartidge on the MMF).

As to cartidges - I think the Elecktra is a better cartidge than the Elan - but we're not talking earth shattering improvements - more like subtle improvements (but still definitely improvements). Yes the elecktra will work with your Yamaha phono stage - no problem. Whether it will sound good or not is dependent upon your Yamaha (could there be more upgrades in you future?). Good Luck!

 

Snotty, patronising response, posted on March 15, 1999 at 03:28:02
Werner


 
especially to Oakroot, who doesn't know a good turntable
when he sees one, let alone when he ears one.

Nah. I tried, and I don't think I like it...

Back to business. Ah, the patronising bit. Er, Oak,
the MMF isn't suspended. Well, maybe it has compliant
feet or so, but that's doesn't qualify as a suspension.
And Rega use glass platters, not acrylic. Perhaps this
is a shame, as acrylic would make them better. Also
more expensive. I don't think the NAD has any upgrade
potential. Taking off its arm to transfer it to a better
TT is nice, but it also reduces the resale value of
a 533 to something slightly less than nothing.

Hmm, if (533)-(MMF) = $90, I'd go for the NAD. How much
does the Pro-Ject 1.2 go? It is the MMF's mother model,
and features the better Pro-ject arm, while the MMF
uses Pro-Jects older thin-tubed arm which they themselves
only used for a short time, on the Pro-ject 1.

Oh, and how much does a real Planar 2 cost?

 

Re: NAD 533, posted on March 15, 1999 at 06:11:43
Jeff B


 
Werner's right, here. Planar 2 has glass platter and MMF is NOT suspended. I compared the NAD to the Project 1.2 and I preferred the NAD quite a bit. I'd say go for it. The Planar 2 will be a bit more refined, but both the NAD and Planar 2 are much more involving sounding than the MMF.

 

Re: NAD 533 - Epilogue, posted on March 15, 1999 at 09:15:13
Bill


 
After digesting all of the information here, I had to ask myself a few questions...
Will I be upgrading any turntable I buy in the near (or distant) future?
Will I be buying a cartridge that costs more than the approx $300 limit on the MMF that Oakroot suggested?
Will I scour the used record shops looking for LPs that have been overlooked by the hardcore vinyl folks? (this seemed possible since every time I was in an audio store, someone there was bragging about a Styx or Foghat LP they found in great condition. The stuff they seem to be collecting is the same music I was more than glad to get rid of in the early 80’s. Thank god for diversity.)
My answers were probably not, probably not, and probably not. I essentially wanted a TT to play the lp’s I already have reasonably well. So in the end, economics ruled. I got the MMF. I went online for any last advice, but logged off just before Werner’s post. Had I seen that I may have waited for the Pro-ject 1.2 at $279. I did ask, but they hadn’t received any yet. They did have the 6.9, though it’s out of my $ range. Anyways, thanks to all. I think I got a lot of very good advice. Also, when I got the MMF out of the box, the first instructions said to remove 2 screws holding the motor to the table so that it could float on the elastic band mounted to the table. If this makes it a suspended design, then Oakroot, you are correct and have won a two week trip to beautiful Cozumel. I think I’m going to just listen and be happy, or at least content, for the time being.


 

Nope!, posted on March 15, 1999 at 10:34:58
Jeff B


 
This does not make it a suspended design. The manufacturer decided to help isolate the motor from the table a bit (this is good) by hoping to absorb a bit of motor vibration through the elastic. What a suspended design table means is a way of suspending the platter and arm from airborn vibrations and footfalls. Not all suspension designs are good. It's better to have no suspension than badly designed suspension. I liken it to a slinky toy. When you hold out a slinky toy and shake it from one end, the vibration goes from one end to the other and back and then bumps into a second vibration and then keeps bumping into further vibrations, each one getting less severe; but you wouldn't want this to happen with the platter and tonearm. The suspension needs to be damped properly so that a vibration goes into the damping mechanism and then gets absorbed. A good mechanical suspension is expensive to make, so you rarely see them on tables for less than $2000. Beware of tables under $1000 that use them. They're probably not very good. On the other hand, some manufacturers use sorbethane as a less expensive way to effectively absorb vibrations. Not as effective as a good spring suspension, the design of the particular polymer does absorb small vibrations very well and this is what good manufacturers use in their lower end models (like Basis and VPI).

Anyway, good luck with your new table. P.S. I would recommend highly putting a board of MDF (cost about $15) under your table and have the board sit on some sorbethane pucks or something called Vibrapods. The pucks will run you about $40 for the four you'd need under the board, or about $48 for 8 Vibrapods. You won't believe the sonic difference. More air, deeper bass. It will improve the sound far more than 20% of the purchase price of the table. Aside from the cost of the MDF board (an acrylic one will also work, but will be more expensive, I think), wherever you buy the pucks or the Vibrapods will refund your money if you're not satisfied.

 

Re: NAD 533, posted on March 15, 1999 at 23:32:19
Oakroot


 
Mea Culpa, everything Werner and Jeff said are correct - the MMF is not a true suspended design and the Rega's platter is glass not acrylic. I must apologize to Bill for giving him some wrong information and thank Werner and Jeff for setting me straight. The bottom line, however, does not change - the NAD still has more potential than the MMF.

 

Zuzpenzionz, posted on March 16, 1999 at 00:00:30
Werner


 
The problem of a damped, dissipative suspension is that
it requires a resistive element in the suspension part.
And this element only can link the suspended mass to the
outside world.

The alternative is to suspend a very high mass off
(reactive) springs. There is little damping, but due
to the mass incoupled energy and subsequent displacement
only can be low in magnitude. Also, the suspension's
resonant frequency can be put nicely at 3Hz or so, well
below the 10Hz of the cartridge/arm, and >20Hz where
music begins.

A sorbothane 'suspension' has a cutoff frequency smack in
the audio range, which is rather suspect.

 

QT, posted on March 16, 1999 at 01:30:50
Werner


 
Come to think of it: UK company QT used to make
an acrylic platter for the Regas. Maybe they are
still around.

Then again, probably not...

 

The Potential of Rega Tables, posted on March 16, 1999 at 07:29:00
Jeff B


 
Y'know, it's amazing the amount of tweaking people do with a table like the Rega. It's such a relatively simple instrument. Everybody loves the arm and what people tend to feel is somewhat lacking is isolation.

Clark Johnson were wondering what would happen if you take a Planar 3 and put some kind of awesome suspension like a Vibraplane underneath. The combo puts it at around $2000. Would you think it would likely be superior to, say, a Basis 2000 or a VPI HW-19 Mk IV. Neither of those tables come with much suspension, certainly not nearly in the range of what the Vibraplane offers. With the arm of the Rega and the Vibraplane suspension, how do you suppose that combo would compare with similar money spent on just a turntable and arm?

 

VPI Mk III and IV zuzpenzionz, posted on March 16, 1999 at 07:34:17
Jeff B


 
Werner, what do you think of the suspension that VPI employs in their HW-19 tables. I am aware of the 19-jr suspension because I own one. What do you think of the spring w/foam design of the Mk III and whatever they use to suspend the Mk IV? These seem to me to be somewhat primitive but do they work. Some seem to like it, others say the sorbethane on the 19-jr actually is more effective.

 

Re: QT, posted on March 16, 1999 at 10:20:53
Oakroot


 
My old Planar 3 had an acrylic platter - and a planar 2 bought as a demo in Seattle about three years ago had an acrylic platter. But you are right in that the newer models do come with a glass platter (not to mention in a few bizzare colored finishes as well).

 

Re: The Potential of Rega Tables, posted on March 16, 1999 at 12:59:10
Thorsten


 
Hi there,

I know the Question is really for Werner, but I have to but in (again).

> Y'know, it's amazing the amount of tweaking people do with a table like the Rega.

Correct, particulary a table that has no good speed-stabilty and is essentially a slab of MDF, a not so hot bearing, a lousy motor and a decent Arm....

After I where to finish upgrading a Rega-Table to offer decent Performance, only Arm and Sub-platter would remain....

One might as well start from scratch anyway 9or buy a real Turntable)....

> It's such a relatively simple instrument.

Relatively is un-neccesary here. Replace with CHEAP.

> Everybody loves the arm

Even I do, but better in Origin Live modified Form....

> and what people tend to feel is somewhat lacking is isolation.

Well, once that is in (as far sa it can be done), you strat hering the motor and so on....

The Rega is a cheap and simple package. Buy it if you like it, plug it in and play it. If you want something a lot better, sell the Rega and buy a Turntable.

> Clark Johnson were wondering what would happen if you take a Planar 3 and put some kind of awesome suspension like a Vibraplane underneath.

Not much. It would still wooand wah and you would still hear the Motornoise in quiet passages....

> The combo puts it at around $2000. Would you think it would likely be superior to, say, a Basis 2000 or a VPI HW-19 Mk IV. Neither of those tables come with much suspension, certainly not nearly in the range of what the Vibraplane offers. With the arm of the Rega and the Vibraplane suspension, how do you suppose that combo would compare with similar money spent on just a turntable and arm?

Dead for the Rega. I once compared a Planar 3 against a Mid 70's Direct Drive Table (Kenwood KD-500). Despite it's better Arm the Rega was a laugh....

And the Kenwood fitted a decent arm.... And note- the Kenwood also has no suspension to speak of. But it does have a very well damped and heavy Plinth (Corian)....

Later Thorsten

 

Re: NAD 533, posted on March 16, 1999 at 19:20:26
Zack Winestine


 
I'm pretty sure that the NAD does not actually come with the RB250 arm. I believe that its arm is called an 'RB-200'. It looks identical to the RB250, but the Rega distributor here told me that the bearings were tensioned to a much lower tolerance than those on the RB250. This makes the Rega Planar 2 seem an increasingly attractive option, for not much more money.

 

Re: VPI Mk III and IV zuzpenzionz, posted on March 16, 1999 at 23:37:12
Werner


 
A suspension's task is to decouple the TT from its
environment, including the motor and its noise. At the
same time the suspension should not introduce speed
instability due to its wobbling around.

Inverted pendulum suspensions, i.e. subchassis sitting
on top of springs (Linn, Thorens, AR, ...) is inherently
unstable and should be discarded. Such turntables are
very sensitive to shocks, hard to set up properly
(of course, they are not stable), and the suspension
has lots of side effects.

Much better is to suspend the subchassis from the springs,
like a pendulum. This arrangement is stable, i.e. the
suspended mass always wants to return to its well-defined initial
position. Examples are Michell, Oracle, and SME.

As the suspension system essentially is a mechanical
second order low-pass system, it has a resonance frequency.
In order not to disturb the record playing process,
its cutoff should be below 3Hz or so, requiring
strong springs and a high suspended mass.

Some use springs, with or without a modicum of
resistive damping. This seems a compromise, as metal
spring coils themselves are resonant structures (~300Hz!),
and these resonances should not enter the system.
Nevertheless, provided the suspended mass is very high,
and thus the subchassis' displacement is very small
under nominal excitation, the springs' signature probably
won't matter a lot.

This is relevant as resistive damping more or less
bypasses the springs, coupling the subchassis to its
environment.

As no two hard metal springs are identical, matching
is an issue with 4-point suspensions. Not so with
3-point affairs, which are statically defined and
stable.

SME suspend with about 20 rubber O-rings in each of
4 suspension towers. An interesting arrangements
as the rubber bands of course don't quite resonate
themselves. Also this is a self-stabilising 4-point
suspension due to the nice statistic distribution of O-ring
tolerances over the 4 towers. (Try this with 4 springs!!!)
SME also employ a dash-pot under the subchassis for
subchassis damping. Again, this is a potential bridge
for external vibrations to get into the system!

Sorbothane dampers are not very compliant and hence
give rise to suspension resonances well above
10Hz or so, when combined with typical subchassis
masses. This is more or less OK to reject motor noise,
but not to reject e.g. acoustic feedback.


As you can gather from this all, suspension design
is not clear cut; all methods have their advantages
and disadvantages, and in the end every affordable
design is to be a compromise, reflecting the designer's
personal taste in such matters.

 

Re: NAD 533, posted on March 17, 1999 at 05:51:59
Werner


 
It is an OEM'ed RB-250. The rumour of the bearing
tolerancing is, so far, a rumour. But I heard it
now from quite a few independent sources :-)

The RB-200 was Rega's first (actually second) arm,
sourced either from Danmark or from Japan. It was
S-shaped.


 

Re: VPI Mk III and IV zuzpenzionz, posted on March 17, 1999 at 06:09:18
Jeff B


 
Can you comment specifically on the VPI design with the above mentioned tables as far as their particular effectiveness?

 

Re: VPI Mk III and IV zuzpenzionz, posted on March 17, 1999 at 07:06:01
Werner


 
No, because there aren't any VPIs over here...

 

Re: NAD 533, posted on March 17, 1999 at 10:46:28
Gino


 
I beleive ROTEL had a budget turntable that used the RB-200 tonearm. It cost $495. I don't know if it is still in production.

 

Re: NAD 533, posted on March 17, 1999 at 17:43:34
Zack Winestine


 
There may be some confusion about names -- I think that NAD referred to the arm as an 'RB200', and someone from Rega USA (the same person who claimed its bearings were not tensioned to the same spec as the RB250) said it was known as an 'RB2'.
Incidentally, I've asked Rega UK directly whether there is any difference in bearing tensioning between OEM RB250 arms and 'Rega' branded RB250 arms, and was told explicitly 'no, there is no difference whatsoever. The arms are identical in all respects, just rebadged (in the case of the OEM arms). The NAD may be the exception here, since I'm not sure that NAD and Rega actually call it an 'RB250'.
Hope the above is helpful, and doesn't just add confusion!

 

Project 1.2, posted on March 20, 1999 at 10:52:25
nataraj


 
I got one from an ad on Audiogon for 250$. Brooklyn Audio may have a few more pieces left.

 

Re: Project 1.2, posted on March 20, 1999 at 10:58:45
nataraj


 
I didn't see you had already bought mmf ...

 

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