Glad to see you guys put in an alternative to AudioReview. Let's hope it stays flamefree. I have decided to go back to vinyl because CD prices are outrageous. The format is almost 20 years old and yet prices have not fallen. I won't go back until they come down to earth.

What I want to know is: Would I get better performance from my records if I buy an outboard phono preamp? My receiver already has one built-in; or, should I instead purchase a better cartridge?

Any info you can provide will be appreciated.

 Re: Phono preamp - Ken A 23:54:53 3/11/99 (4)
 Still, the GyroDec deserves much better - Werner 03:30:11 3/12/99 (2)
 Re: Still, the GyroDec deserves much better - Oakroot 09:01:43 3/12/99 (0)

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 Re: Phono preamp - Ken A 23:54:53 3/11/99 (4)
 Still, the GyroDec deserves much better - Werner 03:30:11 3/12/99 (2)
 Re: Still, the GyroDec deserves much better - Oakroot 09:01:43 3/12/99 (0)
 I agree - Jack G 05:01:07 3/12/99 (0)
 Still, the GyroDec deserves much better - Werner 03:29:34 3/12/99 (0)
 Re: Phono preamp - Oakroot 14:12:56 3/10/99 (13)
 Re: Phono preamp - Bozo 07:43:25 3/11/99 (12)
 Re: Phono preamp - Oakroot 16:04:21 3/11/99 (10)
 Re: Phono preamp - Bozo 08:42:55 3/12/99 (4)
 Re: Phono preamp - Oakroot 09:52:51 3/12/99 (0)
 Re: Phono preamp - Jack G 09:23:32 3/12/99 (0)
 Re: Phono preamp - Rod M 09:13:30 3/12/99 (0)
 Pardon ME!!! - Werner 09:09:11 3/12/99 (0)
 Re: Phono preamp - Werner 23:41:54 3/11/99 (4)
 Re: Phono preamp - Oakroot 10:09:19 3/12/99 (0)
 Relax - ken m 10:14:55 3/12/99 (0)
 Re: Phono preamp - Werner 07:51:33 3/11/99 (0)

A new cartridge may be a good idea, but if your turntable may not have the capability to let you hear the improved performance you just paid for, you've just spent a bunch of money and got nothing for it. The same is true regarding the outboard phono preamp - does your system have the resolution capabilities to give you the performance you've paid for?

No system is perfect and everyones could be improved in one way or another - what my intent is when asking you these questions is to offer advice that is reliable, practicle, and affordable. I agree with you re: the cost of CDs - it is really silly, when there is so much used vinyl available for a few $$$. Of course new vinyl is available to. some reasonable some at audiophile prices (which means very high). Cheers! ;-)

The amount I am willing to spend is $200 for the phono preamp and later I may get a Grado Platinum stylus. I've been looking at either Musical Fidelity or Creek for the preamp. Are there others I should look at?

Any help you can provide will be appreciated. Thank you.

If I were you I would only decide after a listening
session of one or two phono preamps in your own
system, and preferably after you upgraded the cartridge.

The MF and Creek are reported to be fine. In the same
price class you should also look into the Rotel 971
(ex 970) and the Parasound. Cheaper units like the
NAD and QED probably won't improve a bit over your
h/k.

• Visions in Audio

As to cartridge, I agree with Werner that the Thorens is not really a high end entry table, and in such I am not sure I would spend a great deal of money on a new cartridge for it (not even $200). I would try to sell my Thorens and buy a Project or MMF table and then replace the cartridge. This will provide a definite sonic improvement, you will have gained your moneys worth from the new turntable. Hopefully at not a lot of cost since you shoulod get almost enough out of your Thorens to pay for the new turntable. If you have a good dealer, then you may get a good deal in trade if you buy the turntable and upgrade the cartidge at the same time.

In the long run, it would be better to invest in the turntaable and cartidge, and just use the HK phono stage for now. The idea here is to replace you HK with a better unit down the road (an integrated of merit or some seperates). I am guessing that with your Maggies you are not heavily into HT so really have little true need for an AV reciever - like the HK.

Not an easy place to start from and avoid spending money unneccessarily on intermediate steps as you upgade your system to the point where you are happy. (WARNING - Audiophiles are very rarely happy with their systems - this is a disease, run away before it is too late - your showing the first signs of infection). :-)

A $100-150 will do fine on the Thorens.

I am using the MF X-lp at the moment with a gyrodec and Kav300i....

Considering the price I am happy with the performance, perhaps the warm side of neutral, not huge on detail but adequate for me, good soundstage and depth. I am enjoying the music. My (relatively much more expensive) CD player is being used less and less!

Best Regards,

Ken

• TNT Audio Magazine

• TNT Audio Magazine

All I wanted was some advice to see if adding an outboard preamp would improve the sound of my turntable or not. I did not ask if you felt my system meets your approval. That is why I was reluctant to list it. I do not consider myself an audiophile nor do I wish to go into debt to join the high end club. Unlike a lot of you, I have other priorities--like food, clothing and having a roof over my head, so therefore, I must be cautious with my money. The snot nose attitude Werner has shown is the reason why a lot of people do not go into this hobby and just buy Bose and other mass market stuff. They don't need people like him to look down on them.

In the future, Mr. Werner do me a favor, if I ask for any advice in this or any other forum, do not answer. You are of no help to me. Thank you.

Your question was:

Would I get better performance from my records if I buy an outboard
phono preamp? My receiver already has one built-in; or, should I instead purchase a better
cartridge? Any info you can provide will be appreciated.

And like it or not, that question can only be answered
relevantly if we know the context, i.e. the system
you are talking about. Sorry, but quality audio is
a bit more subtle than the blanket answer you seemed
to have expected, like "yes, any phonostage will
with any turntable improve on any receiver".
You can see my reply as a snot nose attitude. You can
also see it as a genuine attempt to make you spend
your money where it matters, regardless of whether
you have an approved system or not. And not that it
matters at all now, but I do like your system.

• Visions in Audio

OTOH, I think the advice was quite good and might actually save you money. If I translate this properly, my impression was that:

1) A new cartidge in the $100-150 range might do more for you, but that that money might be better spent on a new turntable if you are so inclined to go in that direction some day.

2) Without upgrading the turntable, adding a phono stage may result in little or no improvement, buttry it and see (with return priviledges of course). You might not need to spend a dime.

As Oakroot points out, where do you want to go in the long term? Everyone would rather have you save your money than spend it on an upgrade that may not make a difference.

You say your don't consider yourself an audiophile (defined as someone who is interested good sonic reproduction) but your looking at spending money on an outboard phono section when you already have a phono section in your HK, and on top of this you've indicated that you're looking at upgrading cartridges in the future. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see a large inconsistency in your words and proposed actions.

I don't remember anyone trying to get you to go into debt - I do remember giving you an option to your proposed plan that would cost about the same as you were going to spend - that would save you money in upgrading in the long run. (Don't try the I'm not interested in upgrading whine - if you do reread the above paragraph first).

I don't remember anyone giving you approval or nonapproval on your system. I do remember evaluating its strengths and weaknesses to see were the best sonic gains could be made for the dollars you want to spend. This is the same thing you did when you decided to ask us about the phono stage! You thought your system might have a weakness and wanted to address it. I find it hard to understand that you didn't think an evaluation of your system would take place after my request for additional information told you that is what the intent was (the reason for the additional info). I find it equally hard to understand why this bothers you as we all do this with our systems constantly - hence the reason for the existence of this site, the sharing of ideas and information about improving ones systems.

Your system was not insulted, nor were you. It is unfortunate that you chose to respond with personal insults. You may wish to show a little more maturity and understanding to those who attempt to help you in the future.

Please relax a little. I think that you might be taking this all way too seriously. As Werner stated above (I goofed were I put my comment), you asked for any information and he gave what he could from your message. You did not specify budget, tastes, etc. If you would have, he would have given you information that would have been more useful to you. He wasn't being condescending at all. Don't jump on him because he couldn't read your mind.

Your correct though, I should have shown more self-discipline and not taken a shot at such an obvious target. I apologize. No flames were meant then or now.

-ken