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Mofi debacle even makes the Washington Post

100.8.77.206
Posted on August 5, 2022 at 13:35:46
Rick W
 I don't own any Mofi's so obviously I can't comment on Mofi's SQ via the digital files they've been using. But for those like Analog Scott who claim there's no diff between all analog and the Mofi's digital files note the comment from Bernie Grundman in the article.

 

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RE: Mofi debacle even makes the Washington Post, posted on August 5, 2022 at 15:11:58
6bq5
Audiophile

Posts: 4385
Location: SF Bay
Joined: August 16, 2001
 What a tragedy of greed over honesty
Happy Listening

 

Bernie Grundman is wrong, posted on August 5, 2022 at 23:28:21
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 Oh, the blasphomy of uttering such words. But it's the truth. He is wrong about digital stages affecting the sound. How can that be though? He is the great Bernie Grundman!!! How can I, a mere audiophile question the opinion of such a master...mastering engineer?

It's quite simple. Even experts can have opinions that are simply wrong. And this isn't my opinion vs his opinion. There are other mastering engineers and other experts in audio that don't agree with his opinion. But that would be their opinion. And this is where we have to understand human nature, logical fallacies and why science is so important.

When we are talking about objective reality there are no *authorities.* There are experts and there are expert opinions and expert opinions often disagree. Which means experts are often wrong in their opinions. But there is only one authority. Evidence. And when it comes to what we actually hear the gold standard for evidence is the use of blind protocols, level matching and quick switching. And when it comes to listening comparisons using those protocols hi res digital has proven to be transparent over and over and over again.

Also when it comes to our determination of objective reality cross correlation is an important factor. That is because it offers a high level of statistical certitude. For insatnce the cross correlation in biological evolution between the fossil record, radiometric dating and genetic coding. They all paint the same picture. That would be an astronomically unlikely coicidence and as such acts as powerful statistical evidence that life evolved. As it pertains to hi res digital audio we have the cross correlation of the measured distortions of hi res digital audio and the known and well scientifically established thresholds of human hearing. It gives us the same conclusion as do all those bias controlled level matched quick switching listening tests. Then we can pile on null tests that have been done and wrought the same conclusions. So the odds of all of those things giving us the same eroneous conclusions are pretty slim. Veeeeerrrry slim. And what is the evidence on the other side. Anecdotal non controlled listening experiences.

And for that we have a perfectly simple explination as to why people think they hear differences in audio where none exist. Bias effects and steered focus that always happens when you don't use the correct protocols. It is not only a clear and reasonable explination for why people hear differences where none exist it is quite literally the expected outcome of such casual listening experiences.


I think it's worth remembering what else the article mentions. "Shane Buettner, owner of Intervention Records, another company in the reissue business, defended MoFi on the popular message board moderated by mastering engineer Steve Hoffman. He remembered running into one of the company's engineers at a recording studio working with a master tape. "I know their process and it's legit," he wrote. Michael Fremer, the dean of audiophile writing, was less measured. He slammed Esposito for irresponsibly spreading rumors and said his own unnamed source told him the record store owner was wrong."

A lot of people were in denial for a brief period that there was that digital step. Some of them "experts." All of them people who had listened to and thought very highly of MoFi's records that unbeknownst to them had this digital step.

And I still think this is what has gotten under the skin of the audiophile community that had bought into the myth of analog superitority and digital degradation to an audio signal. Their reality, their financial investment, their emotional investment and the time they have invested into this belief has been put to death and they are going through the classic stages of grief, 1. denial 2. anger 3. bargaining. 4. depression. And various said audiophiles seem to stop at one step or the other.

 

Bernie may very well be wrong but he's not purposefully lying as MOFI did. nt, posted on August 5, 2022 at 23:55:08
hcman
Audiophile

Posts: 6362
Location: S.E.Washington
Joined: February 5, 2005
 .

 

of course he isn't lying. He also didn't commit genocide like Hitler. I wasn't comparing him to Mofi, posted on August 6, 2022 at 02:42:49
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 But he is still wrong which was my point.

 

I can't figure a way past their sign up crap /nt, posted on August 6, 2022 at 06:42:26
Story
Audiophile

Posts: 10426
Location: NJ
Joined: December 11, 2000



 

RE: I can't figure a way past their sign up crap /nt, posted on August 6, 2022 at 06:50:53
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 That's because:

"Democracy Dies Behind a Paywall!"


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

I'm surprised they even bothered, posted on August 6, 2022 at 06:57:43
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9739
Joined: September 24, 1999
 I didn't think it was all that news worthy.
Jack

 

Tempest in a teapot?, posted on August 6, 2022 at 08:34:35
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 Maybe.


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: Bernie Grundman is wrong, posted on August 6, 2022 at 09:37:58
SoundMann
Audiophile

Posts: 588
Joined: October 21, 2015
 "And I still think this is what has gotten under the skin of the audiophile community that had bought into the myth of analog superitority and digital degradation to an audio signal."

It's not a myth. You either hear it and understand the science of it or you don't!

 

Have you listened to/compared original all analog LP's vs. the Mofi LP's made from digital copies? nt , posted on August 6, 2022 at 09:38:33
Rick W
 nt

 

To say I don't regret paying the chickenshit cost of a sub would be an understatement. nt, posted on August 6, 2022 at 09:59:57
Rick W
 nt

 

Yes! But so what?, posted on August 6, 2022 at 10:00:34
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 Mofi and other audiophile labels do a lot of things differently. You can't isolate the digital stage unless it is the ONLY variable. Mofi does their own transfers from the analog tape. Right there you have an audible difference from their records and any all analog versions. Mastering moves are never disclosed by Mofi or any of the other labels. So you have any number of variables there.And you have different cutting lathes with different cutting amps. That can make a substantial difference.


So yes, I have done numerous comparisons. And my preferences vary title to title.

But I have also done comparsions that are far more relevant. I have done direct time synced comparisions between LPs that are all analog against hi res digital rips from the same feed. They are indistinguishable.

 

RE: Tempest in a teapot?, posted on August 6, 2022 at 10:01:45
Sondek
Audiophile

Posts: 9621
Location: Fort Worth
Joined: May 17, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 I tend to agree that it a is big old tempest in a little tiny teapot, but my lovely bride, who has a subscription to the WaPo, informs me that this story is on top of the trending articles list at the WaPo.

Merely underscoring how little I know, I guess.

 

good for you, posted on August 6, 2022 at 10:11:06
Story
Audiophile

Posts: 10426
Location: NJ
Joined: December 11, 2000
 bend over, take the wallet out, and pay up. There's a lot of chickenshit out there to choose from



 

RE: I can't figure a way past their sign up crap /nt, posted on August 6, 2022 at 10:15:12
sbrook
Audiophile

Posts: 232
Location: Florida
Joined: November 3, 2004
 If you are using Firefox with No Script you can set the site to Untrusted. The text of the article will be fine but no pictures, which is also fine. I have found that approach works on any number of paywalled media sites.

But on topic...I find the absolute certitude and umbrage taken by some analog stalwarts to be utterly amusing. I love both formats and I have thoroughly enjoyed vinyl reissues that were cut from digital masters. Then again I only have ~6k worth of gear to play it on. Maybe if I had $100k and a treated room I could afford higher plane of certitude for my opinions...

 

Don't give a flying rat's ass that you consider it "bending over". Figures. nt, posted on August 6, 2022 at 10:26:10
Rick W
 nt

 

RE: Yes! But so what?, posted on August 6, 2022 at 10:27:07
ecl876
Audiophile

Posts: 3415
Location: Bend, Oregon
Joined: January 14, 2007
Contributor
  Since: January 28, 2012
 What ever happened to relaxing on a comfortable chair and just trying to enjoy the MUSIC? This whole controversy is so crazy to me. Ok, so Mofi has lied, misrepresented, call it what you will. So what? Clearly, they realized years ago that revealing details of their mastering chain would cause an uproar. And they were right! Clearly, not being honest from the beginning was a bad decision. And they are justly suffering because of it. Haven't we had enough of outrage about this? Either buy or don't buy their products but let's not make this an issue of the century.

 

RE: Yes! But so what?, posted on August 6, 2022 at 10:43:01
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 "What ever happened to relaxing on a comfortable chair and just trying to enjoy the MUSIC?"

Speaking for myself, that's mostly what I do. But better sound does take time, effort and funds. I am of the opinion that better versions of a given title makes for a substantial overall improvement and so it's worthy of exploration.

as for Mofi, I didn't care a bit about this "big scandal." I judge their records on the sound

 

RE: Yes! But so what?, posted on August 6, 2022 at 10:50:07
SoundMann
Audiophile

Posts: 588
Joined: October 21, 2015
 "But I have also done comparsions that are far more relevant. I have done direct time synced comparisions between LPs that are all analog against hi res digital rips from the same feed. They are indistinguishable."

Were these comparisons conducted with reference quality recordings of unamplified instruments?

 

Basically I agree. , posted on August 6, 2022 at 10:56:43
Rick W
 You asked.....so what? Well, you posted the answers. Not sure if you feel I should be castigated for posting the link, but ya know you can always ignore it as I do re: plenty of raps here. I was just kind of amused that the story even made it into WAPO.

 

Yes nt, posted on August 6, 2022 at 11:05:38
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 nt

 

Scott, not sure if was here or on another forum but....., posted on August 6, 2022 at 11:05:59
Rick W
 I already mentioned that I don't own any Mofi LP's so obviously I'm not commenting on how they sound. I was just curious if you'd done a comparison.

 

RE: Bernie Grundman is wrong, posted on August 6, 2022 at 11:07:57
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 Nobody hears it, there is no audible distortion to hear. Anyone who understands the science should know this. It's been put to the test numerous times with the same results.

 

Or..., posted on August 6, 2022 at 11:13:31
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 how little their subscribers know?


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

I own many and have done numerous comparisons. Let me explain "so what?", posted on August 6, 2022 at 11:15:25
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 That wasn't meant to be some kind of an FU for the original post. It was meant to point out that there are too many other variables in comparing Mofis to other all analog masterings to use those comparions as a gauge for the effect (or non-effect) of the digital step in their mastering chain. I have multiple all analog masterings of many of my favorite recordings that all sound quite different fromone another. To gauge the effect or ineffect of that digital step or any digital step it has to be the only variable and it has to be done time synced, level matched and under blind conditions. I have done that and they are indistinguishable.

Now, how do the Mofis stack up against the other labels? They tend to hold their own overall. Some titles they are my favorite and some not so much. I have not found a label or a specific mastering engineer to beat all others.And we can't underestimate the impact of personal taste. My favorites might not be yours or someone else's.

By the way, I enjoyed the article and I am glad you posted it.

 

AND..., posted on August 6, 2022 at 11:20:04
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 as much of the thread below has been taking down, note that inmate 'sbroke's' work around below ,using NoScript plug-in and and Firefox, does work around WP firewall!





First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: Bernie Grundman is wrong, posted on August 6, 2022 at 11:27:14
SoundMann
Audiophile

Posts: 588
Joined: October 21, 2015
 "Nobody hears it, there is no audible distortion to hear."

This is not only a fallacy, but I clearly hear it!

 

RE: Tempest in a teapot?, posted on August 6, 2022 at 11:29:45
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9739
Joined: September 24, 1999
 Today it's on the front, 1/2 way down the page of their website.
FWIW, I don't really care, I haven't liked their rereleases since the 80's. That said, my wife noticed it, probably a lot of people by now.
Jack

 

RE: I own many and have done numerous comparisons. Let me explain "so what?", posted on August 6, 2022 at 11:52:06
Rick W
 I do think Mofi fucked up by not accurately describing their reissues but that's not to say the sound quality isn't good. The only "audiophile" LP's I've bought were a few Classic Records albums when they were on sale at Tower decades ago. Being a geezer I own lots of originals and am not dissatisfied with the non-audiophile reissues I have.

In short, I have no dog in this whole episode.

 

RE: Bernie Grundman is wrong, posted on August 6, 2022 at 12:03:32
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 you can clearly hear it? So in level matched time synced double blind tests you can reliably identify it? You'd be the first one to do so.

 

And nearly 3,200 reader comments! nt, posted on August 6, 2022 at 12:24:30
SamA
Audiophile

Posts: 2902
Location: Washington, D.C.
Joined: February 12, 2004
 Nt

 

RE: Bernie Grundman is wrong, posted on August 6, 2022 at 12:52:15
SoundMann
Audiophile

Posts: 588
Joined: October 21, 2015
 "double blind tests"

I do not engage in this fraudulent BORG buffoonery!

 

RE: Basically I agree. , posted on August 6, 2022 at 13:32:00
ecl876
Audiophile

Posts: 3415
Location: Bend, Oregon
Joined: January 14, 2007
Contributor
  Since: January 28, 2012
 Hey, I'm reading it so I'm just as shallow and interested in the inconsequential as everyone else here. However, it does become too much after a while. And you're right. If you're uninterested, just stop reading!

 

RE: Bernie Grundman is wrong, posted on August 6, 2022 at 13:47:09
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 OK so that's a no. So you didn't hear a difference. You responded to the normal effects of bias and steered focus that happens in all casual comparisons. People will normally think they heard differences where none exist. You are no different. That's just the result of being human. What you call "fraudulant BORG baffoonary" is actually what the educated world refers to as science. Without science you wouldn't be able to go online and rant against science. How is that for irony?

 

to wit, ear training of some sort is vital, posted on August 6, 2022 at 14:16:38
Story
Audiophile

Posts: 10426
Location: NJ
Joined: December 11, 2000
 then someone can say they are able to hear small differences and not just the obvious ones (just the way reviewers from a rag are supposed to be). I hope others find this agreeable.

Or use people here on AA. It helps guide us along the quest and may end up as a left or right turn along the way. I've dumped stuff a few times, had to.

One of the most dreaded things is the break in period if it's new. How long? I read of no approvals here on AA until at least 300 hours for soma capacitors in a tube amp. That's 300 hours of wear and tear on the output tubes unless you have substitutes



 

RE: to wit, ear training of some sort is vital, posted on August 6, 2022 at 14:32:06
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 The scientific research that has gone into testing digital codecs from hi res to MP3 as well as redbook has all been done with trained listeners. And the amount of data accumulated in those controlled tests was massive.

If someone can't hear real differences in a simple ABX DBT because they lack listener training they sure aren't hearing those differences under casual listening conditions. Well designed ABX double blind tests are, contrary to popular audiophile folklore, pretty much the most sensitive protocols for detecting actual audible differences.

 

RE: to wit, ear training of some sort is vital, posted on August 6, 2022 at 14:43:44
Story
Audiophile

Posts: 10426
Location: NJ
Joined: December 11, 2000
 he needs a little help in other words



 

RE: Bernie Grundman is wrong, posted on August 6, 2022 at 18:23:39
SoundMann
Audiophile

Posts: 588
Joined: October 21, 2015
 "You are no different"

I am the Great Genius! My hearing acuity is unsurpassed! I am unique!

 

RE: to wit, ear training of some sort is vital, posted on August 6, 2022 at 19:02:37
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17294
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 Have you participated in simple ABX DBT tests?

Have you ever heard differences between anything in a simple ABX DBT test?
If so can/will you describe that in detail?


Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: AND..., posted on August 6, 2022 at 20:04:43
beach cruiser
Audiophile

Posts: 7054
Location: so cal
Joined: September 24, 2003
 being that a well informed citizenry is essential to keeping our democracy, would it kill you to pay up , as something a good citizen might support?

If you subscribe to other papers, you already know the importance of a free press.

usually competitors stories get published the next day after the original articles appear..

 

you missed the point entirely , posted on August 6, 2022 at 20:33:10
beach cruiser
Audiophile

Posts: 7054
Location: so cal
Joined: September 24, 2003
 my comprehension was that the grundman quote was a simple contrary opinion to the other engineers at mofi who supported the tech. an opinion is neither right nor wrong, it is just an opinion.

Newspapers often develop a story in that way, to better inform the reader. Grundman is a well credentialed authority, so his opinion is worth including , in contrast to the other statements.

one can contradict an opinion with facts, or support it in the same way. I think you blew it all out of proportion . the man is entitled to his opinion.

 

RE: Tempest in a teapot?, posted on August 6, 2022 at 20:40:33
beach cruiser
Audiophile

Posts: 7054
Location: so cal
Joined: September 24, 2003
 I am not surprised, people read newspapers to be informed of the world around them, and probably have some interest in vinyl records as a cultural deal, even if they don't own any.

vinyl records are ubiquitous , in either past or present experiences.

 

I enjoyed the read, because I was unaware that Freemer screwed up again., posted on August 6, 2022 at 21:02:29
beach cruiser
Audiophile

Posts: 7054
Location: so cal
Joined: September 24, 2003
 I am the same way, the MOFI stuff I own was bought used, whey back when , before my self imposed vinyl space limitation, so I never even bothered to follow the controversy, as the new stuff didn't concern me. But I figured the hub Bub had died down, so I read the linked article to get some facts.

It was worth the read because Mr. Fremer makes an ass out of himself twice in the same report. First when he attacked the record store owner , not just to contradict his facts, but also to say he is not credible , not an expert reporter in the field, and should be ignored, unlike himself, I suppose.

Then, later on in the article, he steps in it again, saying he should have been called in to talk with the recording engineers , instead of the guy who exposed the truth, because he was , my words, Michel Fremer , or however he spells his name . I long ago gave up on the guy, so am not exposed to his spelling. I figure he is just another old guy trying to make his way in the world, and if people want to exalt his opinions, fine with me.

I think he was way out of bounds to belittle the truth, and the messenger.

 

some have reason to be cranked about this moral question, not me, posted on August 6, 2022 at 21:31:30
beach cruiser
Audiophile

Posts: 7054
Location: so cal
Joined: September 24, 2003
 I was kicking around YouTube and one guy mentioned an eight thousand dollar selling price for a MoFi Santana album, that now has to be re- evaluated because of the digital step. And the fact that the digital step means no more real limits on production . Contradicting two important elements, because of the manufacture's dishonesty, that drove the collector and retail price.

I suppose for normal collectors that would cause a bit of concern, but really , a person willing to pay thousands of dollars for a single record can probably take the hit.

If one was investing for speculative profit in a record business, he can probably write off a partial loss on his taxes.

Maybe MoFi will get smart and reissue the high demand albums so that more people can enjoy the quality, and to make hay while the sun shines on vinyl records.

I suppose they will stick as closely as possible to the established pricing structure, and keep the collectors happy be treating the records like baseball cards, instead of music , a cultural enrichment.

 

On the contrary, you missed **my* point entirely , posted on August 6, 2022 at 23:27:20
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 "my comprehension was that the grundman quote was a simple contrary opinion to the other engineers at mofi who supported the tech. an opinion is neither right nor wrong, it is just an opinion."

No, that is simply wrong. Objective facts are not a matter of opinion. And the idea that different opinions on objective facts deserve equal consideration is very problematic, antiscientific and in many cases just plain destructive. There are people who hold the opinion that the fact that the earth is round, the fact that life evolved or the fact that we are in the midst of climate change created by human polution are not true. But those opinions are wrong and are not deserving of equal standing to the actual facts. They are myths. Myths promoted as having equal validity as the facts are destructive. The idea that scientific facts and myths should be treated as equal because everyone is entitiled to an opinion is a terrible idea.This runs completely contrary to the very principles of science that lifted us out of the dark ages.


"Newspapers often develop a story in that way, to better inform the reader. Grundman is a well credentialed authority, so his opinion is worth including , in contrast to the other statements."

I never said the article should not have included Grundman's incorrect assertion of fact about the audibility of a digital step. I said his assertion is wrong. The problem I have with his assertion is that it gives creedence to an anti-scientific position that is at the root of a mythology about vinyl sound quality. Were it not for that very audio myth that he is helping to promote this very contraversy would not even be a contraversy.

"one can contradict an opinion with facts, or support it in the same way."


No, not really. One can contradict incorrect assertions of fact with facts. Opinions are inarguable. Facts are not subject to opinion.

"I think you blew it all out of proportion . the man is entitled to his opinion."

Yes, Bernie is entitled to his opinion. Opinions like a tube cutting amp sounds subjectively better than a solid state one or a little EQ on this or that recording will sound subjectively better than none. Promoting audio myths as facts is not the same thing. Bernie is entitled to *believe* audio myths and he is entitled to express his beleifs in those audio myths. BUT...those beliefs do not deserve to be treated as equally valid as actual objective facts. They should be called out for what they are, audio myths.

And that is what I did. And that is the point you missed.

 

RE: some have reason to be cranked about this moral question, not me, posted on August 6, 2022 at 23:38:28
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 those same speculators drove the pirces to that point in the first place. I have no sympathy for someone who pays that much money for that record as an investment. The *value* of audiophile records *as promoted by the audiophile labels* is in the sound quality. The market is driven by supply and demand. The sound quality of that particular record reached legendary status and that is what drove the demand. The limit of the edition run was a matter of the licence and that is what dictated and still dictates the supply. A digital step does not change either. Mofi makes no representation that any of their one steps are not subject to potential second editions.

Speculators have no complaints on moral grounds here.

 

I do most of my comparisons of different masterings under blind conditions, posted on August 6, 2022 at 23:50:09
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 And when I am having trouble discerning differences in my preference comparisons I do a simple ABX DBT to see if there is any difference to be heard. And yes, using an ABX test I can much more easily discern that there is an actual difference, when there is one to be heard. It allows me to change my focus from what do I like better to what differences do I actually hear. I can switch back and forth and focus on different elements of the sound. *That* is what makes those tests more sensitive than casual non time synced comparisons. With quick switching you can listen for and lock in on very subtle specific differences. You can't do that without time synced quick switching. You lose it in the brief time delay. Sometimes with digital sources I find there actually was no audible difference. At least none that I could detect. Certainly none worth worrying about.

 

And THIS is what we as audiophiles/vinylphiles should be talking about. Thank you Jamie!, posted on August 7, 2022 at 00:30:39
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 "Jamie Howarth, whose Plangent Processes uses digital technology to restore sound and whose work has earned praise for Neil Young and Bruce Springsteen reissues, wishes MoFi had come clean years ago and proudly told its customers that their prized records sounded best because of the digital step. He understands why it didn't. It was terrified of being attacked by analog-or-bust audiophiles.

"One of the reasons they want to excoriate MoFi is for lying," says Howarth. "The other part that bothers them is that they've been listening to digital all along and they're highly invested in believing that any digital step will destroy their experience. And they're wrong."

Wood says that MoFi decided to add DSD not for convenience but because its engineers felt they could help improve their records. He remembers hearing MoFi's reissue of Santana's "Abraxas" in 2016. "My mind was blown when we got the test pressings back," he said.

 

Great article, posted on August 7, 2022 at 01:23:54
Goober58
Audiophile

Posts: 5576
Joined: November 15, 2016
 At this point I'm assuming that 45 rpm is what is making all the difference and I'm giving the DSD mastering a pass. There was at least one 33 rpm that I thought was really good, Breakfast In America, and in that one it was always a crapping sounding record which sounds pretty decent, maybe they used more digital processing to fix that one.

That super vinyl thing I'm not sure of at all. One of the reasons I'm really looking forward to the I-Robot release - I'm going to get to hear how the super-vinyl and the one-step can enhance a 45 rpm production. I'm 8 months on this pre-order, hope they are going to be able to get the records out.





 

Actually no - mofi trick people into buying a product they would never have bought, posted on August 7, 2022 at 02:37:18
Goober58
Audiophile

Posts: 5576
Joined: November 15, 2016
 That's what happened Scott - lots of people bought product they had zero interest in owning.

There are people who are involved in this hobby purely for the pursuit of analog recordings and their reproduction - it's what they do and a choice they made.

Now imagine having purchased gear because it sounded better with those new MFSL analog references only to find out the analog references were digital.

Who do these people think they are when telling all analog hobbyists it's ok they bought DSD mastered vinyl because it sounds better? It's a ludicrous excuse for tricking folks into buying what they are selling and then claim they are on the high road. LMAO - literally.

FWIW - I really like mofi and music direct. Let's hope this doesn't mess up their business.

 

"lots of people bought product they had zero interest in owning.", posted on August 7, 2022 at 03:13:56
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 Sorry but that is Bullsh**! The same disgruntled owners of those Mofi records were, for years, thoroughly enjoying those same records that you say they had no interest in owning. So that's bullsh**. If you are actually an audiophile you don't buy and thoroughly enjoy something "you have no interest in owning." These are audiophile records. It is about sound qaulity. If the percieved sound quality wasn't there *then* the interest wouldn't have been there and the series would have died a long time ago. Two weeks ago if you asked those same people why they own Mofi one steps and why they love those records so much they would have told you because they sound great.

And please don't give me this other bullsh** about provenance. Nobody that I have ever seen on any audiophile message board has ever brought up the subject of "provenance" when it came to all analog mastering chains before this story broke. No one, ever. The cult devotion to all analog mastering chains has ALWAYS been based on the misinformed belief that it was an audibly better chain and that the difference was quite substantial to the end result.

If they had zero interest in owning those records it was because they bought into the bullsh** passed off as basic knowledge that anything digital in the mastering chain actually matters and matters a great deal.

But they sure didn't have zero interest in owning those records when they actually owned them but didn't know there was a completely audibly transparent digital step in the mastering chain. They loved those reocrds then. Huge edition runs at $125.00 were selling out in presales everytime. Everytime! So don't tell me they didn't want them. They bought them, they played them, they loved them. They just thought wrongly that anything digital in the mastering chain would ruin the sound and they found out the hard way they were wrong and they are butt hurt about it. This IS about their egos and about their massive time invenstment, emotional, and financial investement was placed in a lie pushed by the audiophile media, other audiophile labels and other audiophiles who drank the Koolaid.

 

Recently read all of the PSAudio interviews with Thomas Fine..., posted on August 7, 2022 at 06:15:18
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 including his earlier work directly from tape to vinyl as well as his most recent tape to digital using the Plangent Process.

Lots of history involving his parents as well as his own experience working with old tape.

And his work with the Plangent Process.



First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

I've subscribed to a 'local' newspaper for more than 50 years..., posted on August 7, 2022 at 06:22:16
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 In fact, even TWO (both morning and evening) back in the 70's.

Still do.

But...

were I to subscribe to EVERY newspaper in the world, I wouldn't have money for $5,000 TT mats, would I? :-)


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

Thanks but...., posted on August 7, 2022 at 07:09:46
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17294
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 I was looking for date, time, list of participants, what gear was used, what was being compared, details of how the "time synced"/"lever matched" was accomplished, list of results-trial by trial-participant by participant, etc...

"I can switch back and forth and focus on different elements of the sound." is a little confusing to me. Can you expand on that in contest of an ABX test?

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Thanks but...., posted on August 7, 2022 at 08:26:19
Don Reid
Audiophile

Posts: 890
Location: Rural NW Georgia
Joined: February 2, 2001
Contributor
  Since: April 1, 2010
 I have some Mobile Fidelity Original Master LPs, but most of them were bought back around 1990 or so when our local Turtles Records store was having a going out of business sale, and I bought a large stack of them for $5.99 each. So the controversy is largely academic to me.
However it does bring a different thought to my mind. I have been called a tin eared apostate heretic because I use a DEQX DSP to control my DIY fully horn loaded triamplified speakers. I've been asked by analog purists why I even bother to play LPs on my Clearaudio turn table since the digital process is going to "obviously" screw up the sound. Perhaps those analog purists aren't as able to hear a digital step as they have convinced themselves they are.


I dream of an America where a chicken can cross the road without having it's motives questioned.

 

RE: Thanks but...., posted on August 7, 2022 at 08:41:18
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 "I was looking for date, time,"

I don't keep that kind of information.

"list of participants," usually just me. Sometimes I have one friend who also participates.

"what gear was used,"

It was pretty much with my previous system. I think that one is still listed. If not Sound Lab A3s, Vandersteen sub, ARC electronics SP 10 pre D 115 power. FOrsell Air Reference with flywheel, Koetsu Rosewood Signature. Tascam digital recorder

"what was being compared,"

Oh jeez, I'd have to go back and look at my comparison notes. But it would include a number of comparisons of many classical and jaz titles on the various audiophile reissues. A lot of Yes records.


"details of how the "time synced"/"lever matched" was accomplished,"


That was done on it's own by the Tascam digital recorder. It has a monitor and bypass switch. Same level with no noticble latency.


"list of results-trial by trial" I do keep track of the results but I am working in Italy right now and I leave those notes in the stereo room. Off the top of my head I prefered the AP Fragile over the Mofi and over any original pressings. But I am going to have to go back and revisit all of those comparisons with the new system. A couple specific instances where I was struggling to choose a favorite and resorted to ABX was with an original U.S. Piros pressing of The Yes Album compared to a New ealand pressing. That was a long time ago. In ABX I could only detect a difference in surface noise. When I checked the dead wax it turned out that the plates were from the same exact father. Another time was with the James Boyk Perfomance Recording of Pictures at an Exhibition. He recorded it both digitally and on his custom analog tape deck. Very hard to pick a favorite.Not nearly as hard to tell there was a difference in an ABX comparison.



""I can switch back and forth and focus on different elements of the sound." is a little confusing to me. Can you expand on that in contest of an ABX test?"

For sure. I can focus on say the bass. How extended is it? Go back and forth quickly listening for a shift in bass extension. Low level detail. Focus on something in the mix that is barely audible. Go back and forth quickly, is the level of audibility shifting? Spectral balance, Focus on overall tonality, switch back and forth quickly. Do I hear a shift. And I can go right on down the line and focus on each aspect of the sound individually and listen for shifts, even very subtle shifts in the back and forth. Once I feel I have zeroed in on specific differences I do the X part of the ABX focusing on the differences I sorted out before hand. Makes identifying even the most subtle differences much more reliable.

 

It's a big tent, posted on August 7, 2022 at 09:48:00
Goober58
Audiophile

Posts: 5576
Joined: November 15, 2016
 This is basic stuff - MFSL has wanted us to believe it was Gain 2, One-Step, Supervinyl and 45 RPM that was leading to the quality of their products. And here you are and the MFSL engineers too suddenly arguing that it's the DSD mastering that's been responsible for the great sound. Why bother telling us the truth while they've promoted one trademark or another as the reason for the great sound.

I'm very much at a loss for your (and others) attacks on the all analog mindset as a defense of what has happened here. It puzzles me - I would just assume let the topic rest but your nonsense inspires me.


 

Eye of Providence, posted on August 7, 2022 at 10:07:04
Goober58
Audiophile

Posts: 5576
Joined: November 15, 2016





View YouTube Video

 

You are painting a strange false dichotomy here, posted on August 7, 2022 at 10:12:56
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 "MFSL has wanted us to believe it was Gain 2, One-Step, Supervinyl and 45 RPM that was leading to the quality of their products."

Yes!!! All of which they use and all of which has a real sonic impact on their records.

"And here you are and the MFSL engineers too suddenly arguing that it's the DSD mastering that's been responsible for the great sound."

2.points.1. It ain't sudden for me. I've been preaching the value of the Plangent system for some time now and have been a strong advocate for that replacing any kind of direct cutting from the analog tape. 2.It's not an either/or. there is no switch in play here. The Mofi engineers believe the advantage of a digital step is 1. transparency so nothing is lost 2. utter freedom to ste their mastering moves and do direct comparisons between those mastering moves and the unaltered original digital copy. Should be pretty obvious how that is a big advantage over cutting straight from the analog tape. Although I think I have heard that a lot of mastering engineers do this anyway even if they go back to the tape to do the final cut. The advantages of using a digital step are real and are seperate to the advantages of one step plating, 45 rpm and their proprietary cutting system. It'snot an either/or proposition.


"Why bother telling us the truth while they've promoted one trademark or another as the reason for the great sound."

Do you care about ad copy or real world mastering techniques that make a difference?

"I'm very much at a loss for your (and others) attacks on the all analog mindset as a defense of what has happened here."


It is not a defense for what happened. But it is an attack on an audio mythology that is IMO holding back progress and pressuring the reissue labels to make inferior choices.




 

It's much simpler than that - you are attempting to change the topic, posted on August 7, 2022 at 10:44:36
Goober58
Audiophile

Posts: 5576
Joined: November 15, 2016
 "Do you care about ad copy or real world mastering techniques that make a difference?"

The topic is ad copy not "real world mastering techniques that make a difference". So convenient for you to obfuscate the two.

"It is not a defense for what happened. But it is an attack on an audio mythology that is IMO holding back progress and pressuring the reissue labels to make inferior choices."

The attack on the all analog brigade is a strawman defense for an indefensible situation. Just more obfuscation.



 

RE: It's much simpler than that - you are attempting to change the topic, posted on August 7, 2022 at 10:49:28
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 ad copy sure isn't the topic *I* raised in *my post* that you responded to. Maybe you should go back and give it a careful read. you don't get to revise the content of *that post* to suit your argument. *That* would be a classic strawman.

 

RE: Thanks but...., posted on August 7, 2022 at 11:25:54
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17294
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 "list of results-trial by trial"

I was asking for the tally of how many correct vs. how many wrong ABX answers. Isn't that, in the end, the proof?

Thanks.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Thanks but...., posted on August 7, 2022 at 12:53:08
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 Yes it is but I wasn't trying to "prove" anything with these personal ABX tests. I was just checking to see if there was any differences there to be heard. In both examples I gave you I was batting 1000 after about 6 or 7 trials. I had zeroed in on the differences and it was pretty easy to idenify them in those ABX comparisons. which was my point.The ABX DBT was more sensitive to audible differences than my A/B preference test which is way more sensitive to any non synced non quick switching sighted comparisons.


I have done a few CD vs SACD tests and failed to find a difference to lock onto. If I can't lock onto a difference in an extensive A/B quick switching synced comparison looking just for audible differences I see no reason to do ABX. I wouldn't know what to listen for.

 

RE: It's much simpler than that - you are attempting to change the topic, posted on August 7, 2022 at 15:27:28
Goober58
Audiophile

Posts: 5576
Joined: November 15, 2016
 No your's and sadly most opinions in the article (after a 2nd read) seem to rely on the same all analog strawman to justify the lies.

I suppose in their defense, there has been no effort by MoFi or Music Direct, at least as that I've seen, to use that strawman.

I agree with Jamie in that I wish MoFi would have came clean from the get go about their digital technology. But they didn't instead they choose to push their trademark analog technologies as their SOTA and as the reason their records sound so good. Gotta seriously wonder now how much of that is pure hype. I'm not an all analog guy but really someone who feels uncomfortable about being bamboozled. See what I mean a little trust goes a long way.

What's at stake here, at least IMO, as someone who is not bias'd toward vinyl colorations as you have claimed to be, is the potential for SACD playback to be better than the much more expensive vinyl reissues and even regular CDs that could sound better than the original vinyl.

 

RE: It's much simpler than that - you are attempting to change the topic, posted on August 7, 2022 at 19:17:35
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 If you think I am trying to justify lies then you aren't getting my point. This is what Jamie said that I think should be the bigger discussion but instead is being dodged by the true believers in all analog mastering chains. "He understands why (mofi) didn't (reveal the digital step). "(mofi) was terrified of being attacked by analog-or-bust audiophiles."
"The other part that bothers them is that they've been listening to digital all along and they're highly invested in believing that any digital step will destroy their experience. And they're wrong." IMO *THAT* is the elephant in the room that all these angry vinylphiles are trying to ignore. It isn't about defending Mofi. Like Jamie I *understand* why they did it but I am not defending it. I am taking issue with the destructive force the audiophile myths have become.

 

For the life of me I don't understand what that has to do with the issue at hand, posted on August 7, 2022 at 20:02:17
Goober58
Audiophile

Posts: 5576
Joined: November 15, 2016
 I don't believe for one minute they were worried about being attacked by (lol, didn't someone say eviscerated by) analog or bust audiophiles. More likely in spite of the fear mongering they were mostly worried about losing the analog or bust audiophiles business.

So they believe any digital step will destroy their experience - that fact even if they enjoyed the DSD mastering and were fooled by it doesn't in any way make up for or in anyway diminish the ad copy mischief.

What starts out as an attempt to swindle has turned into an attack and blame on towards those who were being swindled. Go figure?

Instead of standing by these fellow audiophiles who have been so dastardly swindled, for some yet understood reason you (Jamie on the other hand sells digital media so I understand his purpose) feel compelled to give them a face kick for good measure.


 

RE: For the life of me I don't understand what that has to do with the issue at hand, posted on August 8, 2022 at 00:14:48
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 Clearly we see things very differently. And don't forget, I actually bought most of those one steps and dozens of other MoFi records with a digital step. According to you I'm the victim here. I'm the one who has been "swindled" out of literally thousands of dollars. And yet I don't feel swindled.

As for standing by my fellow audiophiles...-.. f*** that. They need to stop believing in bull**** and stop creating an environment that is counter productive to the goal of better sound. So so yes, I'm all for giving them a proverbial kick the face.


Whether you understand it or not I am results focused person. I don't ever give credence to ad copy so I never feel betrayed by it. I want better sound and I am happy when I get it. MoFi records, digital step and all have contributed to that goal. These all analog cultists have been an actual obstacle to that goal. I'm happy to give them a close up look at the bottom of my shoe.

 

RE: Mofi debacle even makes the Washington Post, posted on August 8, 2022 at 05:40:27
fstein
Audiophile

Posts: 2994
Location: fstein
Joined: May 18, 2006
 I have been dumpster diving (eg Salvation Army) for old vinyl for years and saying that the 'improvement'on a $40 record vs a WELL TREATED and ultrasonically cleaned $2 disc was marginal

 

RE: Mofi debacle even makes the Washington Post, posted on August 8, 2022 at 07:26:35
Mike K
Audiophile

Posts: 13973
Location: 97701
Joined: September 23, 1999
 I am not a consumer of vinyl, as all of you who frequent this board
assuredly know. Nonetheless, I've been following this situation with
mild interest.

Mofi broke trust with its customers. That's not good. But does it matter?
Does the product sound good? If so, be happy and don't worry about the
use of digital in the production chain. If the product doesn't sound good
then an all-analog production chain doesn't really matter, does it?

I'm a consumer of digital product and the only thing I care about is,
does the recording sound good. If it does, I'm happy.


Lack of skill dictates economy of style. - Joey Ramone

 

Don't you mean subjective reality?, posted on August 8, 2022 at 15:42:54
checch
Audiophile

Posts: 524
Location: western mass
Joined: May 11, 2004
 All listening is subjective. No two pair of ears or brain processes sound the same, ask the experts!"You see what you want to see,you here what you want to hear." It's all about the lie,sort like trump. Cheers,Chet

 

freemer attacks Washington Post credibility, posted on August 8, 2022 at 15:49:55
beach cruiser
Audiophile

Posts: 7054
Location: so cal
Joined: September 24, 2003
 I was just looking around you tube and found Mr. Freemer disputing the article, saying he asked for corrections, but the post stands by its story. Guess who get my vote for credibility.

In his rebuttal, he uses a small snippet of a previous video as proof of his objection, but when I tried to follow it up on his site to get the entire context, I couldn't find either of the two videos he mentioned. Which leads me to believe he is just another guy yelling fake news when the truth doesn't match their preferred reality. In fairness, maybe I just don't know how he curates his site, or just didn't look in the right places for the info.

But YouTube seems pretty straightforward, and this is a guy who reviews and promotes records that he gets for free, seeing no problem with that, saying everybody does it. maybe that is normal in the industry,I don't know, but most reviews state if they purchased the item , like consumer reports and many other reviewers do, if they receive a kick back from sales, like a lot of best of lists , or if it was a gift.

I did find another YouTube audio site where the guy read a letter offering him fees and a percentage of sales to promote a product, some kind of record player he slammed . he displayed a couple of unasked for payola letters about the product, and he doesn't take payola.

Perhaps this explains how magic rocks and vinyl demagnetizers get started in the market place with positive reviews, I don't know. I do know integrity around money is very challenging for some people.

 

RE: Mofi debacle even makes the Washington Post, posted on August 8, 2022 at 16:14:45
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2558
Joined: January 11, 2011
 This is the problem with an opinion based hobby - everyone has them but no one can prove their opinion to be correct!

Bernie certainly has extensive experience, but his opinion has been formed from his earliest experience....which was pre-digital. Bob Ludwig is of a similar generation, yet I have seen an interview with him where he openly discusses embracing digital technology as a means to overcome the inevitable degradation that occurs with analog to analog transfers.
Two different opinions from men who have been around in the business for a similar period of time. One has evolved with the "new" technology, the other has retained a preference for the original technology.
You can't deny that Kevin Gray, Bernie and the others who still prefer analog sources haven't benefitted from the recent vinyl revival and the lust for "all analog"!

The question I would pose for those preferring "all analog" is in relation to recordings that were originally digital - Dire Straits "Brothers In Arms". Putting aside the benefits or evils of "remastering" and just considering getting back to the ORIGINAL intended sound for the original release, would they prefer the original analog master tape that was made from a transfer via a DAC of the times (which granted would not be in the same class as a DAC of today), or would they consider it better to put the original digital data through the latest SOTA DAC?

I am in the latter camp - if I were to buy a reissue, I would want them to go back to the original source (digital or otherwise), then put that through a restoration process (just like Bob Ludwig did for the Queen reissues or applying the Plangent process to a digital transfer of the original analog master). I don't want the analog blemishes - I want a blemish free and accurate transfer. That's just me, but I'm interested in other opinions on this.
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

Link to video showing how scrupulous Geoff has been with his sources., posted on August 8, 2022 at 18:13:51
viridian
 Link below:

 

RE: Link to video showing how scrupulous Geoff has been with his sources., posted on August 8, 2022 at 21:30:42
beach cruiser
Audiophile

Posts: 7054
Location: so cal
Joined: September 24, 2003
 thanks for the provided insight. I was interested in how the reporter worked, I can't remember ever seeing a personal interview with a reported, just had read about the process.

I also like the 45 arm guys site, I had come across his stuff before, but wasn't up to speed on how the YouTube work gets monetized so this time I subscribed, rang the bell, and clicked like. Believe me, I really appreciate what he does.

As a hi fi fanboy, I loose patience with people who start a presentation, fumble around for items they need or intend to present, and throw in about a hundred I don't know in reference to what they are talking about. That time waster bothers me .

I am an old guy, I think framer has five years more trips around the sun than myself, but it might be time for him to back off in a world where hearing is critical, and just accept that he is no longer the only game in town and just be the elder statesman instead of trying to be the leader of the pack.

 

RE: Mofi debacle even makes the Washington Post, posted on August 13, 2022 at 17:32:04
alu
Audiophile

Posts: 5
Joined: August 8, 2022
 we need justice

 

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