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AR Turntable tonearm question

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Posted on August 1, 2022 at 20:29:23
George S. Roland
Audiophile

Posts: 1470
Location: N W Pennsylvania
Joined: March 20, 2004
 I have been reading about the AR XA turntable and The AR Turntable. I know that these days, almost all tonearms come with anti-skating capabilities, and that the original AR-XA tonearm lacked this feature. I read that Edgar Villchur said if one was worried about anti-skating one could simply increase the tracking pressure by a half a gram.

Most writers claim the AR-XA tonearm was not up to the standards of the turntable or that it was a sub-optimal design even for its time. None of these writers ever tell why they think it's a sub-optimal design or what it lacks besides anti-skating. Another writer claimed these criticisms of the AR-XA tonearm were unwarranted and that it is actually a "superb" tonearm design.

So, what say you about the AR-XA tonearm--good, bad, indifferent?

I had an AR-XA table a long time ago. I am looking to acquire another and would appreciate comments about the tonearm question. I am torn as to whether to buy an XA as an example of Villchur's superb design work, or go for The AR Turntable because of the supposedly better arm??

 

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RE: AR Turntable tonearm question, posted on August 2, 2022 at 09:04:10
Basher52
Audiophile

Posts: 119
Joined: February 18, 2016
 Hello Mr. Roland. IMO what Edgar Villchur wrote was applicable to the typical MM carts of that era and would likely be used on the AR table. The original arm was no giant killer prize however was / is adequate for the purpose. The bearings and materials were spec'd for a price point yes though with attention paid to careful engineering. And the 'S' shaped arm tube helped minimize head shell offset error.

Overall a properly set-up AR table (in good condition)is still capable of providing remarkable musical performance even today, at least on par with contemporary designs at the same relative cost. I have heard AR tables with Soundsmith, Shure and other carts installed that sounded wonderful.
So I'd not fret overmuch on the anti-skating issue ... the quote from Harry Weisfeld "just set it up and enjoy it" applies here.

 

RE: AR Turntable tonearm question, posted on August 2, 2022 at 14:57:37
George S. Roland
Audiophile

Posts: 1470
Location: N W Pennsylvania
Joined: March 20, 2004
 Thank you for this advice. I remember that when I had an AR-XA turntable I used two Shure MM cartridges with it. Both tracked well and sounded neutral to me--an M97xE and a V15 VxMR, both of which sounded fine on the original arm. The second much more expensive cartridge sounded much better but even the lower-priced one sounded quite good. The table was noticeably quieter than anything else I had heard to date.

 

RE: AR Turntable tonearm question, posted on August 2, 2022 at 15:40:52
Bill Way
Audiophile

Posts: 1884
Location: Toms River NJ
Joined: May 28, 2012
Contributor
  Since: December 14, 2012
 re: anti-skate
Harry Weisfeld of VPI, which makes some of the best tonearms on the planet, said that anti-skate improves tracking a bit, and hurts the sound a bit. As cartridges today track so very well, the tracking is really a non-issue. That's why VPI arms didn't have anti-skate compensation until they gave in to customer demands recently. He still urges customers to not use it, and I agree. Remember that everything on the arm resonates, so removing any inessential stuff is generally a good idea.

To test whether anti-skate helps or hurts, listen with it on for a couple weeks, then remove it for a couple weeks, then hook it back up. You may be surprised with what you hear... or not. My Hadcock 242 sounded marginally better without anti-skate, and lots better when I removed the anti-skate stuff completely.

re: AR arm
As long as you know how to free the clutch, it's not a bad arm. Some people remove the clutch completely. If not, be sure to lower the arm below the level of the record before cueing up - that disengages the clutch. (The clutch prevents the arm from hitting the record hard if you drop it.)

WW
"Put on your high heeled sneakers. Baby, we''re goin'' out tonight.

 

RE: AR Turntable tonearm question, posted on August 2, 2022 at 16:25:05
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17297
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 "Harry Weisfeld of VPI, which makes some of the best tonearms on the planet, said that anti-skate improves tracking a bit, and hurts the sound a bit. As cartridges today track so very well, the tracking is really a non-issue. That's why VPI arms didn't have anti-skate compensation until they gave in to customer demands recently. He still urges customers to not use it, and I agree. Remember that everything on the arm resonates, so removing any inessential stuff is generally a good idea."

Harry is against anti skate "Devices". He feels they vibrate too much and add more problems than they fix. As far as I know he doesn't reject the idea that there is a skating force and that it needs to be compensated for. His uni pivot tonearms do that by placing a twist in the wire. A twisted wire is not a anti skate "device" according to Harry. It's just a twist in a wire that gets the job done.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: AR Turntable tonearm question, posted on August 2, 2022 at 21:37:40
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 4308
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
 I used a Decca 4RC in an AR arm with good results. As above remove the clutch pin on the inside of the arm pivot. It dampens the arm descent if you drop the arm accidentally. But it can also be activated by record warp(find me a totally flat record) in which case the pickup loses full contact with the record, probably a source for many of the complaints against the arm.

 

always strive for the best possible arm, posted on August 2, 2022 at 23:09:42
beach cruiser
Audiophile

Posts: 7054
Location: so cal
Joined: September 24, 2003
 If you want nostalgia, go for it. the arm still depends on synergy with the cart, so I think your cart preference would call the tune when considering running such hardware.

I do think the point made in the other post was very salient , that the advice you referred to was from another time, referring to another completely different set of circumstances.

My AR eb101 from the eighties was one of the last gasp tables using the original AR name and design principles. It had a rebranded Jelco lightweight straight arm suitable for the mass market popular carts of that time . I would assume the original AR arm was suitable to carts of that time .

I now have a modified Rega arm, and it is better suited to control moving coil carts, it is not as lightweight as the arm supplied in the eighties on my AR table.

When my mass market table was sold, there was also a top of line table, that had a better, solid wood, plinth, but the main design advantage was a sapphire jeweled main bearing. It didn't come with an arm.

if this is what you identify as ,''The AR Turntable" it would be my choice, but you might negotiate price if the arm is dated, because it was not a factory piece. IF it has an arm, it is the mass market table, which served me very well, with good bass and a nice soundstage.

 

AR Turntable tonearm question (cont.), posted on August 3, 2022 at 08:00:17
Basher52
Audiophile

Posts: 119
Joined: February 18, 2016
 Addendum: On that Shure V15 VxMR (which I also use, excellent cart, now getting to the point of needing a replacement stylus from SAS)some years back I was lucky to actually talk with "the last" engineer at Shure in Evanston who designed the V15 series. He advised that if the arm / cart is horizontal with the disc surface at a 1 gram tracking force then the VTA / SRA will be correct for the stylus profile. You might still want to experiment with slight changes however his report provides an unusually helpful reference point. Happy listening.

 

addendum to the addendum, posted on August 3, 2022 at 15:27:31
beach cruiser
Audiophile

Posts: 7054
Location: so cal
Joined: September 24, 2003
 First off, I sent off for the SAS replacement product for my shure v15 VxMR and was satisfied with the fine results. the brush on the front no longer had a damping effect, but I long ago, as my system improved , left it secured in the up position . I really got my ego stoked when I saw the exact same combo used at an audio show to demonstrate product. having an almost unobtainable object will do that to a collector type guy.

I bought two replacement tips at once, thinking to use one to check for wear against the one in play. At first hearing of my new replacement tip, I didn't like the sound, so installed the other and everything was fine. I didn't continue switching tips to check my hearing for illusion, but that is what I figured .

What I really checked in about was the set up advice. I don't pretend to have the background to engineer phono carts, I can only read and repeat, for whatever that is worth.

Specifically, I am referring to the stylus rake angle advice. I had read that the V15 series was named after the cutting head chisel angle used when the cart was designed, 15 degrees, when in the past, it used to be closer to ten. Today the preferred cutting head angle is around 20 degrees, depending on the cutting engineers preference, so the offered advice might be obsolete on modern records.

Of course if you have an arm with an adjustable VTA you can tune by ear. I always ran the VxMR cart at almost 1.5 grams , after playing some test records , so the advice wouldn't apply to me anyway.

 

Edgar Villchur's advice on anti-skating, posted on August 4, 2022 at 09:09:27
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 I've read that quote elsewhere too, about increasing VTF to alleviate the skating force. I was always surprised that a man as brilliant as he obviously was would say such a thing. To the point where I doubt he said it or that he meant it that way, at least. Increasing VTF would increase the friction between stylus and groove, which is the cause of the skating force. So that's the last thing one would want to do, if one wanted to add anti-skate. (It seems to me, anyway.)

 

that design goes way back..., posted on August 4, 2022 at 13:24:01
Story
Audiophile

Posts: 10431
Location: NJ
Joined: December 11, 2000
 ...with the usual conical's and ellipticals when VTA and SRA didn't matter nearly as much as later on. I was a kid when a neighbor showed me his.

I mounted a non-stock tonearm on my used The Table, one with adjustments so you could dial it in. I don't know what arm it came with stock. With an updating on tone-arms you have a wide selection on head shells and their wires etc.

It's a lot of work to dial it in, perhaps more than any other worthy table. Most turntables are. I guess it will depend on how far you want to take this. Although I find Basher's response very good, I'm an anti-skate guy.



 

RE: Edgar Villchur's advice on anti-skating, posted on August 5, 2022 at 09:18:14
JonM
Audiophile

Posts: 292
Joined: December 29, 2000
 Increasing the stylus force will increase the skating force, but what Villchur was trying to address was mistracking caused by the skating force (or by too little downward stylus force in general). Push a little harder down on the stylus, and the mistracking will stop.

Look at page 6 of the AR manual at the link below, and you'll see what I'm referring to.

More groove wear/damage is caused by mistracking than by a slightly higher stylus force, so it was a reasonable compromise at the time.

 

RE: AR Turntable tonearm question, posted on August 5, 2022 at 10:23:47
6bq5
Audiophile

Posts: 4385
Location: SF Bay
Joined: August 16, 2001
 I would like to add to this discussion, that having an original AR XA 'table, it would be a fair challenge to change the tone arm -
part of the 'secret sauce' that the XA brought to the market was a under chassis that kept the Arm and platter bearings tied 'together' - this simple feat managed to give the table great performance, for the time, at the princely sum of ~$50.00

I am sure you could install any manner of tonearm, and it might well sound great- but for me, the allure of the AR XA is its simplicity and great sound as-is
Happy Listening

 

RE: AR Turntable tonearm question, posted on August 5, 2022 at 16:42:45
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 Well, when you buy the AR turntable, you'll see for yourself that the tonearm is a piece of junk. It was my first turntable because I didn't have enough money for a better one. As soon as I saved up the money, I bought a Thorens TD-125 with an SME 3009 tonearm. That was an excellent turntable. I owned it for more than a year until I became broke again and sold my entire system.

I was 22-years old at the time and it was one of the best stereo systems I've ever owned. It was a Revox system with Acoustic Research AR-3a speakers. It included a Revox A77 tape recorder, a Revox integrated amplifier, a Revox tuner, and the Thorens TD-125/SME turntable with a Shure V-15 cartridge. I also had a Stanton 681 EE cartridge and an Empire 2000Z cartridge.

I will never forget that system. I've certainly owned better systems since, but it was a pretty cool system for a 22-year old kid. ;-)

Happy listening!
John Elison

 

"piece of junk . . ". Pretty strong words John. The AR-XA tonearm is, posted on August 7, 2022 at 23:05:29
alaskahiatt
Audiophile

Posts: 7503
Joined: December 9, 2000
Contributor
  Since: November 1, 2005
 very inconvenient, but AR provided overhang adjustment with a poorly located screw. The instructions also showed how to install provided headshell spacers to adjust VTA with different cartridges of that period. The design of the plastic headshell is very light but strong and mated with the high compliance cartridges of that period. The offset counterweight was designed to provide a constant tracking force on slightly warped records. Again, sliding the counterweight to achieve proper tracking force is really inconvenient but very possible. If the vertical bearings are adjusted according to the manual instructions, and the horizontal bearing is kept lubricated, the arm will move easily for proper tracking. The manual also provides instructions for removing a safety pin in the arm to avoid improper vertical arm movement.

So the cost of the adjustable tonearm is very affordable but inconvenient. I admit that azimuth adjustment for poorly constructed cartridges is missing though.

To improve my AR horizontal bearing movement, I sanded he bearing rod with numerous grades of sandpaper and metal polish to achieve a very glossy, smooth, finish.

So, The functional design of the table was not simple, but the features were simple and inconvenient. If a tonearm can move freely vertically, horizontally, and be properly aligned, I don't think it is junk. Pain in the butt maybe, but it gets the job done well.

 

notable hallmark of progress, posted on August 8, 2022 at 03:34:12
Story
Audiophile

Posts: 10431
Location: NJ
Joined: December 11, 2000
 it's so easy years later to say it's a piece of junk. How many have said that about our cars or appliances or tubes or___ just fill in the blank.

Then someone comes along and puts an Edison talking machine in a museum and presto - instant respect



 

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