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Don't say 'Vinyl Vs. Digital' which is lame

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Posted on July 29, 2022 at 20:13:48
PaulF70
Audiophile

Posts: 1422
Location: Midwest
Joined: June 30, 2006
 How many have spent big money on a great DAC, been convinced it's the ultimate, no more need for vinyl, then had a realization after some time that music is just not as enjoyable, not just once but in general, for reasons that can't be explained?

To put this query another way, has anyone ever had the realization - unmistakable yet elusive - that an analog-recorded vinyl record is literally playing back music while the best DA converter in the world, no matter how great is sounds, is reconstructing music?

And you can't shake this intuition over a long period of time, no matter how much you want to?

Is it just that you want to go home again, or are you on to something?

A friend of mine was wondering.

 

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RE: Don't say 'Vinyl Vs. Digital' which is lame, posted on July 29, 2022 at 22:35:59
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 "How many have spent big money on a great DAC, been convinced it's the ultimate, no more need for vinyl, then had a realization after some time that music is just not as enjoyable, not just once but in general, for reasons that can't be explained?"

I went to a digital based stereo system. The amps are all fed a signal that goes through a speaker cross talk cancelation DSP that was fed a room corrected DSP signal that goes to a digital crossover network. My DAC is a pro DAC that does not cost big money.Never thought this meant no more need for vinyl as I truly enjoy vinyl's euphonic colorations and I enjoy the many better mastered recordings on vinyl. The music has never been nearly so enjoyable as it is now. Not even close. It's whole new ball game.


"To put this query another way, has anyone ever had the realization - unmistakable yet elusive - that an analog-recorded vinyl record is literally playing back music while the best DA converter in the world, no matter how great is sounds, is reconstructing music?"


They are all playing back recordings. Digital just does it more accurately.


"And you can't shake this intuition over a long period of time, no matter how much you want to?"


Bias effects are very powerful

 

It's strange, Paul - I've never had those feelings, posted on July 30, 2022 at 01:21:48
Chris from Lafayette
Audiophile

Posts: 26477
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: February 17, 2004
Contributor
  Since: February 6, 2012
 Maybe they're just too elusive for me? ;-)

 

it's either digital or analogue, so why not say it, posted on July 30, 2022 at 06:17:00
Story
Audiophile

Posts: 10453
Location: NJ
Joined: December 11, 2000
 and is it the AD or the DA conversion that's at fault? I would hope that in any conversion the best component is being used. 50/50? 66/33? Where is the most fault? Buy the component that was used in the AD so you can DA properly? How to know if that's the best? I'll bet all of them might use different AD's in studios and they cost way more than the commercial DA's.

Another problem - the conversion is done 5 years ago and time marches on... Then a new magical DA converter comes up and what is everybody going to do? Buy the one that was raved about 5 years ago for cheap and then hear reviewers find all kinds of faults with it now? Ooops, I'm so confused.

Throw away everything? Abandon it all? Can't hear a difference so I don't give a F... anymore? Go out and buy up old vinyl records and collections?

Some are happy with what we have because we settled in on a more than likeable system that we searched high and low for.

If you can't "shake the intuition" then break it. If you're able, go out and find what you like and stick with it until the nurse says you can't go outdoors with your wheelchair



 

Why is your moniker still "Analog Scott"?, posted on July 30, 2022 at 11:00:59
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17302
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 .
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

Ha! Thanks. nt, posted on July 30, 2022 at 11:25:59
alaskahiatt
Audiophile

Posts: 7508
Joined: December 9, 2000
Contributor
  Since: November 1, 2005
 nt

 

guess you missed this part of my post, posted on July 30, 2022 at 12:34:41
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 Not sure how though. "Never thought this meant no more need for vinyl as I truly enjoy vinyl's euphonic colorations and I enjoy the many better mastered recordings on vinyl."

I think Ihave said it many times that all else being equal i generallyprefer vinyl over digital. That has not changed.I also enjoy tube sound too even though my system is all solid state now.

 

How about. .., posted on July 30, 2022 at 13:03:27
13th Duke of Wymbourne
Audiophile

Posts: 2800
Location: Orange Co., Ca
Joined: September 19, 2001
 A good DAC reconstructs the original music and vinyl replays the music but then adds lots if distortion, cross-talk, resonances and frequency response errors that actually sound nicer. Like good seasoning, and leaves DAC replay seeming a bit bland.

 

I think Vinyl Scott or Antagonist Scott would be better choices (nt), posted on July 30, 2022 at 13:08:30
Goober58
Audiophile

Posts: 5587
Joined: November 15, 2016
 Just Goober58's 2 cents.

 

I say it is lame, posted on July 30, 2022 at 13:34:37
Goober58
Audiophile

Posts: 5587
Joined: November 15, 2016
 At a basic level a young person could have started in this hobby 20 years ago, assembled a large collection of digital music, CDs, SACD and digital tapes, and a very impressive high quality hifi that provides high levels of music enjoyment without any analog including music mastered from analog.

Others whether they started collecting vinyl LPs decades ago or started later with the philosophy that original analog records (or analog tapes) were the source of hearing those recordings as they were intended to be heard could have built awesome impressive and musically satisfying hifi systems.

Both philosophies result in awesome sounding systems and impressive collections of recordings. IMO a more adventurous and enlightened audiophile attempts to build systems and music collections to take advantage of both analog and digital and not demean or disparage those who are happy with one or the other approaches (or even other philosophical purposes) - it's kind of lame and appears little more than self-serving IMO to do so.

 

I was thinking Digital Scott. nt, posted on July 30, 2022 at 15:43:33
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17302
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 .
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

If I were going to change it I would go with "No audiophile bullshit Scott, posted on July 30, 2022 at 20:51:57
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 but I'm not changing it.

 

RE: How about. .., posted on July 30, 2022 at 21:48:47
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 sounds about right. although IME the crosstalk is immaterial. The real villan when it comes to crosstalk is the speaker/room

 

RE: Don't say 'Vinyl Vs. Digital' which is lame, posted on July 31, 2022 at 04:53:50
Munkie_NL
Audiophile

Posts: 4860
Location: Netherlands
Joined: August 24, 2003
 I live in the Netherlands, i have mainly Dutch and German license pressings of the ususal Anglo/American pop/rock classics. In the old days, the labels would send a COPY of the master tape to NL or Germany to do a local license pressing. In the 1970's probably analog, in the 80's increasingly digital. So i could be listening to a digital pressing although it doesn't say on the cover.

"The torture never stops"

Greetings Freek.

 

Tell your friend he's 100% right..., posted on July 31, 2022 at 08:32:24
Joe Backer
Audiophile

Posts: 1033
Joined: July 10, 2011
 ... although we do all hear differently and have different tastes in content, so some people could be perfectly satisfied with digital, long term.

 

RE: Don't say 'Vinyl Vs. Digital' which is lame, posted on July 31, 2022 at 09:56:38
newvinyl
 PaulF70 wrote, "How many have spent big money on a great DAC, been convinced it's the ultimate, no more need for vinyl, then had a realization after some time that music is just not as enjoyable, not just once but in general, for reasons that can't be explained?"

How many? There are at least two of us - you and me.

Although, I can't say that I ever thought there was no more need for vinyl. In my case, I tend to always veer back to listening to LPs because I enjoy the listening experience more.

And like you, I can't seem to explain it. I just end up back at vinyl.

 

Have you ever listened to an lp in a car?, posted on July 31, 2022 at 12:06:39
lokie
Audiophile

Posts: 1989
Location: Georgia, USA
Joined: January 28, 2003
 Both have their charms.

 

Howzabout updating your system? What made you switch to SS? nt , posted on July 31, 2022 at 15:18:51
Rick W
 nt

 

I will eventually, posted on July 31, 2022 at 17:28:35
Analog Scott
Audiophile

Posts: 9933
Joined: January 8, 2002
 Still sorting out a few new elements of it first.

Why did I switch to solid state? I now have the Sanders 10E speakers.Roger sanders sells them with a dedicated SS ampmade specifically for the panels and highly recomends using a high powered SS amp for the woofers. Soit seemed like the right thing to do, use the speakers as recomended by the designer.BUT I am also now using a couple tube simulator DSPs. So I have adjustable tube sound at th click of a mouse. It works really well.

 

That's a nice way of putting it, posted on July 31, 2022 at 18:31:28
jedrider
Audiophile

Posts: 15167
Location: No. California
Joined: December 26, 2003
 Hobby wise, I'm sure one can put together satisfying systems either way or, all four ways, actually.

I like to say that my current system maybe favors it one way or the other. Maybe, that will change, but to just be enjoying it as it is right now is the first hurdle we face and must surmount.

 

RE: Don't say 'Vinyl Vs. Digital' which is lame, posted on August 1, 2022 at 07:06:34
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 I haven't felt the need to play a record in more than two years since buying my FiiO M15 DSD Player/Streamer.

To each their own!

John Elison

 

Isn't it "vinyls versus digitals"? , posted on August 1, 2022 at 14:27:25
viridian
 Nt

 

RE: Don't say 'Vinyl Vs. Digital' which is lame, posted on August 2, 2022 at 16:42:20
PaulF70
Audiophile

Posts: 1422
Location: Midwest
Joined: June 30, 2006
 "To put this query another way, has anyone ever had the realization - unmistakable yet elusive - that an analog-recorded vinyl record is literally playing back music while the best DA converter in the world, no matter how great is sounds, is reconstructing music?"

They are all playing back recordings. Digital just does it more accurately.

** Your statement is objectively false. It is a fact that an analog medium stores an analog waveform directly, with only EQ applied, while any DAC is constructing the waveform. This is very basic and simple.

This doesn't have any bearing on which, if either, is "better," but it is certainly true.


"And you can't shake this intuition over a long period of time, no matter how much you want to?"


Bias effects are very powerful

** Yeah, actually you don't know what you're talking about.

 

RE: Don't say 'Vinyl Vs. Digital' which is lame, posted on August 2, 2022 at 16:51:11
PaulF70
Audiophile

Posts: 1422
Location: Midwest
Joined: June 30, 2006
 I should be more clear.

I think digital music is now capable of reproduction if not equal to analog than very, very close.

For most music I am quite happy.

I have an Innuous Server and DirectStream DAC, which, IMO, with the new software around two years ago, became an absolute top-tier DAC despite not having a matching price.

There's nothing specific I can put my finger on, but it is specifically my classic jazz - 50s and 60s stuff - that just does not absolutely immerse me in digital as the vinyl used to.

I suspect that if this music would have been recorded with a SOTA DSD recorder it would be as good or extremely close to the analog recordings. But these are native analog recordings that, for whatever reason, digital transfers (I assume from the masters) just do not match.

I do have some digital music from this era that does blow me away. Off the top of my head, Muddy Waters' Folk Singer on DSD64 is one such record. Vinyl doesn't beat that. But there are so, so few truly top-tier recordings on digital IMO.

Mind you all my high-res jazz SOUNDS fabulous. You can't really point to any particular weakness - there's perfect tone, decay trails, and everything else. And, of course, the frequency extremes are better than all but the best vinyl (though my last table was a Techniqs 1200G which gave up very little).

It's just that, as I said, I find that I much more rarely reach that trance-like state of complete immersion.

 

RE: Don't say 'Vinyl Vs. Digital' which is lame, posted on August 5, 2022 at 10:56:14
SoundMann
Audiophile

Posts: 588
Joined: October 21, 2015
 "Digital just does it more accurately."

Digital sounds far removed from the original event. The best analog recordings come the closest.

 

RE: Don't say 'Vinyl Vs. Digital' which is lame, posted on August 8, 2022 at 18:05:13
PaulF70
Audiophile

Posts: 1422
Location: Midwest
Joined: June 30, 2006
 I retract my post.

My impressions were based on quality of specific recordings. I listened to some others - digital - that left me just as flabbergasted as the best vinyl.

One is Blakey's Kyoto in humble redbook resolution. It is amazing what the PS Audio DAC can do with Redbook.

There are a number of others.

Even *streaming* Dark Side of the Moon Qobuz (at 24/96!) put me firmly in the trance-like state.

Whatever else there was that had me convinced of vinyl magic was, I think, some occult nostalgia for vinyl sound.

Moral: Don't listen to guys on the Internet.

 

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