Vinyl Asylum

Welcome Licorice Pizza (LP) lovers! Setup guides and Vinyl FAQ.

Return to Vinyl Asylum


Message Sort: Post Order or Asylum Reverse Threaded

VPI Classic 4 new motor

98.109.181.143

Posted on December 5, 2020 at 14:23:21
Peter C
Audiophile

Posts: 181
Joined: February 2, 2002



I've got my Classic 4 jacked up on blocks. I pulled the old motor last Tuesday. I made sure to provide cheap beer for my redneck buddies who helped. I'm awaiting the new balanced and blueprinted motor from Sota but it looks like it's been held up in the mail.

 

Hide full thread outline!
    ...
RE: VPI Classic 4 new motor, posted on December 5, 2020 at 17:51:41
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
January 29, 2004
Are you buying the 3-phase motor sold by SOTA Sound Inventions, LLC? It's called the Eclipse Series 3-phase motor with tachometer speed control. If so, you will have the finest turntable motor that I know of. I have a prototype of this system on my SOTA Millennia Vacuum turntable:


 

RE: VPI Classic 4 new motor, posted on December 5, 2020 at 18:33:27
Peter C
Audiophile

Posts: 181
Joined: February 2, 2002
Ha! Yes I am. It's coming with the Condor and Roadrunner, too: The Total Eclipse package. I don't understand why VPI didn't do something like this a long time ago. I'll keep you posted once I get it all set up.

 

RE: VPI Classic 4 new motor, posted on December 5, 2020 at 18:44:54
I also have the SOTA motor/drive system package. It is superb, astonishingly quiet, especially compared to the VPI motor it replaced.

 

RE: VPI Classic 4 new motor, posted on December 5, 2020 at 18:57:45
Peter C
Audiophile

Posts: 181
Joined: February 2, 2002
I'm looking forward to just how quiet it will be. You can probably tell by looking at my plinth, which is on top a solid sheet of .5 inch aluminum, that the noisy stock motor's vibrations get directly transmitted to the tonearm. You can actually hear the motor at 45 rpm through the speaker with your head up close, if you are using the HRX instead of the stepped pulley and therefore running the motor faster. The platter is pretty well isolated though, by virtue of its mass, the heavy sink underneath, and because I use a Funk Firm Achromat. With a mechanic's stethoscope and the belt off I don't hear any noise coming from the platter. I'm actually thinking of getting an air bearing linear tracking tonearm as a potential next upgrade / experiment to help isolate the tonearm.

 

RE: VPI Classic 4 new motor, posted on December 5, 2020 at 19:06:52



Yes, I understand about vibrations getting to the tonearm. I have a custom plinth using a VPI platter and bearing. The motor "pod" sits on the bottom layer of the plinth. The VPI transmitted vibration to the point I could hear it in quiet passages. The SOTA set up cured the problem completely.

 

RE: VPI Classic 4 new motor, posted on December 5, 2020 at 21:30:47
MikeWI
Audiophile

Posts: 632
Joined: March 22, 2002
My Kelly 3 Phase drive for the Papst motor in my ROK turntable was a very big step up in sound quality! It should be good for your setup too!

I even observed a noticeable improvement just by feeding clean AC to the original capacitor "faked" phase drive that was stock on the TT. It was not something I thought would matter.

Mike

 

It matters, but...., posted on December 6, 2020 at 07:23:26
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10912
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
none of the rest of us, who don't already own one, is ever going to be able to buy a Mark Kelly controller. He is out of the business, so the used market is one's only hope. I am sure his product would make a world of difference on your ROK. Do you have the one with a tube output stage? (I am not sure he made a 3-phase controller using output tubes. He did make such a controller for the Garrard 301 induction motor.)

 

RE: VPI Classic 4 new motor, posted on December 6, 2020 at 07:25:31
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10912
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
Could that aluminum shelf be partly the problem in transmitting motor noise to the tonearm and hence to the speakers?

 

RE: VPI Classic 4 new motor, posted on December 6, 2020 at 08:06:41
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
January 29, 2004
I think multiple belts also improves wow & flutter and speed stability. All belts form curvatures and non-linearity in elasticity and structural integrity. However, multiple belts rotate at slightly different speeds thereby distributing these non-linearities differently from belt to belt. This essentially reduces the effect of these non-linearities thereby providing a more constant driving force to the platter.

Best regards,
John Elison

 

RE: VPI Classic 4 new motor, posted on December 6, 2020 at 08:13:02
MikeWI
Audiophile

Posts: 632
Joined: March 22, 2002
My Kelly 3 Phase drive for the Papst motor in my ROK turntable was a very big step up in sound quality! It should be good for your setup too!

I even observed a noticeable improvement just by feeding clean AC to the original capacitor "faked" phase drive that was stock on the TT. It was not something I thought would matter.

Mike

 

RE: VPI Classic 4 new motor, posted on December 6, 2020 at 09:40:17
Mel
Audiophile

Posts: 2993
Location: New York City Area
Joined: February 21, 2001
VPI had its chance, but they wouldn't make a reasonable financial deal with the inventor (and patent holder, I assume). The man is a genius, but of a very different sort than HW.

Since then VPI has been wallowing in mediocrity wrt its belt-drive motors and controllers. They have been promising for years to produce a unit with some sort of tach.

Kudos to SOTA for doing it. Apparently lots of VPI owners are going to SOTA for these units.

 

I don't own the SOTA motor..., posted on December 6, 2020 at 16:44:10
kootenay
Audiophile

Posts: 8446
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Joined: October 16, 2007

However, the VPI Single 300 RPM Motor & Flywheel upgrade was much stable and quieter than the regular motor that came with my TNT.

 

RE: VPI Classic 4 new motor, posted on December 6, 2020 at 17:50:38
edwyun
Audiophile

Posts: 44
Location: USA
Joined: October 4, 2010
Enjoy, you'll really like the upgrade. The SOTA Condor/Roadrunner works very well on VPI tables and reduced a lot of the unwanted noise from the original Hurst 300rpm motor on my Prime. The results from measurements and listening (see VPI forum) speak for themselves.

 

RE: VPI Classic 4 new motor, posted on December 7, 2020 at 08:55:50
HW
Manufacturer

Posts: 515
Joined: March 16, 2002
Yes, we are wallowing in mediocrity as we designed and built the best Direct Drive table ever made. Do you think that took 3 days and a magic wand!!

BTW, we have a fully functioning BLDC motor drive for our belt drive tables with phase controlled drive and feedback from the platter but excuse me as New Jersey locks down the damned state and we can't get anything done. I'm not even allowed in the factory for months now. We have a new digital engineer that spent the last 40 years designing motor drives for CNC machines and laser drives. He too is stuck due to Covid and cannot join us at the factory, working at home.

This is not a joke guys, this pandemic has stopped everything and the first duty is keeping people safe.

It's all coming, including a lower priced direct drive, which will beat anything you can run with a belt.

HW

 

RE: It matters, but...., posted on December 7, 2020 at 15:33:56
MikeWI
Audiophile

Posts: 632
Joined: March 22, 2002
No, I had to design the output stage myself using 3 power op-amps. The Class D amp that Mark provided just wouldn't work with my motor. I started with a 2 phase ROK that had one very high current demand winding. The 3 phase Papst is an incremental step up from that.

Mike

 

RE: It matters, but...., posted on December 8, 2020 at 10:19:07
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10912
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
So maybe he didn't market his 3-phase design, even in all SS mode. Kudos to you since you apparently have the knowledge and skill to convert yours to 3-phase operation.

 

RE: It matters, but...., posted on December 8, 2020 at 19:14:49
MikeWI
Audiophile

Posts: 632
Joined: March 22, 2002
Mark's PCBs, a set of two, could do 2 or 3 phase. I built them fully populated since I knew I wanted the 3 phase Papst motor at some point. All of those pretty Sine waves were available when the build was completed.

It sat on my work table for some time since the output stage didn't work properly and kept burning up. The day came when I realized that I just needed to focus on the problem and put it behind me (as an EE). It was well worth the effort!

Mike

 

RE: VPI Classic 4 new motor, posted on December 13, 2020 at 07:54:51
Peter C
Audiophile

Posts: 181
Joined: February 2, 2002






After a lot of experimentation with motor isolation and some trouble with static electricity, I have the new SOTA motor installed. When I first ran it, I was getting constant popping sounds in the speakers from about every 5 to as long as 30 seconds. After some discussions with Christian at Sota and Kent at Pass Labs, I realized that I was probably getting static discharge due to the belt movement. When I did the conversion, I neglected to reestablish the plinth ground that had been tied to AC ground for the old motor. So I ran a wire from both the plinth ground screw and a screw from the bottom of the motor to a bolt I attached to the aluminum cover plate on the bottom, and from there another wire from a second new ground screw to the phono preamp ground. Problem solved. The other issue I had a hard time dealing with was transmitted noise through the solid aluminum plinth top plate to the tonearm, despite this motor being quieter than the Hurst. It certainly vibrates much less in my hand. The best solution I came up with was to mount the motor on rubber isolation standoffs I purchased from McMaster-Carr. I ordered standoffs in a couple of different durometer hardnesses to experiment with. With medium hard ones, noise was drastically reduced at 45 rpm, but not content with that, I tried the soft ones which yielded barely detectable noise picked up through my mechanics stethosocope even on the plinth right next to the motor. Very cool, indeed. However, it does bother me that the soft mounts have considerable shear flex, so I may try the harder ones and test both with Analog Magic to see which gives the better w/f readings. It's not lost on me that I've been fighting this fixed motor design and have essentially replicated a SAMA, but without the mass loading from the motor pod. But the results I'm hearing are very impressive. I have not heard such rock solid imaging and fine detail from this table before.

The attached wow and flutter measurements were made with Analog Magic's 33 1/3 test disk. I did three trials, each with one belt and one with two belts. I tested having no standoffs and motor tightly fastened to plinth, use of medium hardness standoffs and finally with soft standoffs. Analog Magic computes 8 or 9 wow and flutter measurements in track 3. I recorded 8 and took the average. The conclusion is that 2 belts are definitely better than one. And surprisingly, the medium hardness standoffs gave the best reading at .073, with no standoffs in second place with .077, which I thought would have been the best option, and in third place, the soft standoffs at .079. I probably can't hear the difference between these readings, so I will probably use the soft standoffs which gives the lowest transmitted noise.

 

RE: VPI Classic 4 new motor, posted on December 13, 2020 at 21:04:38
edwyun
Audiophile

Posts: 44
Location: USA
Joined: October 4, 2010
If your BLDC motor came in the SOTA Condor motor pod, you can open the bottom plate. There should be some open space inside there that you can fill with lead shot or similar to add some weight to the pod.

 

RE: VPI Classic 4 new motor, posted on February 15, 2021 at 09:04:46
Peter C
Audiophile

Posts: 181
Joined: February 2, 2002
Update: I've been experimenting with various length Origin Live belts. The first one I ordered based off my measurements (and later confirmed with a formula for belt length on two pulleys) came with their standard (and recommended) .98 multiplier. I felt it was much too loose because the pulley barely grabbed it and I saw a lot of oscillation in the belt as it traveled. Through experimentation, I cut it down and reglued it to .93 times the measured length. This worked pretty well, giving .072 W/F reading via Analog Magik, slightly better than either one or two VPI belts with the VPI motor. I then ordered two more belts from O.L, one at .97 and one at .96 times the length. The .97 one grips very well and it gives the best measured W/F I have seen on this table: .06, keeping in mind that this is with the new SOTA motor and controller. Interestingly, after running the .96 for a good hour as recommended by O.L., the best W/F I could get was .139, which seems way too high. Both the shorter and longer belts did better. Perhaps I need to run the .96 one for a lot longer to break it in. So, in conclusion, I have probably gone as far as I can with this table. .06 is a very respectable W/F reading. Combined with the dead-on overall speed accuracy provided by the Road Runner, which shows anywhere from 33.3333 to 33.3337 once the bearing is warmed up, I'd have to go to an air or magnetic bearing to wring any more improvement out of it, which I have no plans on doing. (Maybe using the VPI ring would help with inertia but I hate using it and so I sold it). Another point I'll make is that I now regard setups which have you manually change the belt pulley position to change the speed are definitely a compromise and very disappointing to see on expensive tables. The elastic behavior of the belt that is affected by it's tightness is a critical parameter for optimum performance. It should be set so it's providing just enough friction to not slip when running, so that stretch and rebound are kept to a minimum. I may be able to run their .98 belt if I try it again, but that will require manually spinning the platter to help get it up to speed, which is a technique O.L. recommends.

 

RE: VPI Classic 4 new motor, posted on September 19, 2021 at 07:31:52
Pyramid
Audiophile

Posts: 86
Location: Behind the Cheddar Curtain
Joined: May 14, 2014
Harry, on VPI's forum you made this post disparaging BLDC motors:



You made this rant regarding speed correction:



As well as this one:



You eschewed any sort of digital electronics for turntable use, going so far as to remove all your remote controls from your listening room:



So now VPI is working on a BLDC motor with digital control and feedback?

The HW40 uses a BLDC motor, digital electronics and feedback; you also tout the absolute speed accuracy of the HW40 even though you previously stated that absolute speed accuracy doesn't matter:





So what changed Harry?

 

Always like them TNT tables!, posted on October 9, 2022 at 09:40:14
Cougar
Audiophile

Posts: 4589
Location: SoCal
Joined: June 25, 2001
I thought that was one of VPI better designs.

 

Page processed in 0.035 seconds.